Blame the boot - or not?

[David Koblas]

This has come up a few times with both my students and friends/family. The discussion goes something like this:

My turns suck because my boot is "insert quote here":

• Too tight
• Doesn't flex
• Too loose
• My heel slips
• ...etc...etc..

While there are very clear cases where a boot can cause problems for the skier, pain is a clear example of how a boot can adversely effect a skiers performance. My personal challenge is that I find that when I'm blaming the boot, it's usually the skier at fault (from my own personal experience).

My boot is going on 4 seasons old with a superfoot as a footbed. It's a race boot so there wasn't much to pack out of the liner. I can ski this boot, buckled tight or buckled loose, but if I look at a turn that was bad it I don't think that it was the boot that caused it - more likely that I didn't release the ski or the upper body was out of balance. (If I'm hard charging and want instant response I'm all over a tight boot).

As a skier/instructor - how much do you think people are throwing their boots under the bus when they're fundamentally out of balance or have other issues that need to be resolved? Or am I making up stories about my own boots and feet so I don't have to go spend more $$.

 

[Philpug]

Boots can get all the credit...and as being asked here...they can get all the blame. Paging @bud heishman to the white courtesy phone. I think that boots are the most important piece of gear, more that the best technical ski with the perfect .5/3* edge bevel. Can the skier/instructor be out of balance? Absolutely, but how are we going to know that until we remove the variable of either the wrong boot and/or the wrong stance? Can a good skier overcome the wrong boot? Sure. Do you need new boots? Maybe not. Why are you asking? Is the boot not doing something that you need it to do or it is not fitting the way it used to? You have 4 seasons on them, is that 4 30 day seasons or 4 130 day season? Hell, @Bob Barnes has probably over 1,000 days in his boots. Since this question was asked in the Ski School forum and not the bootfitting one (I can move it) I think the fundimental question is, it the boot stopping you for doing something/making a movement that prevents you from showing that movement to your student limiting your ability to do your job? Or are you going for a level and there is issues?

 

[Doug Briggs]

Far too many high(er?) level skiers are in a boot that is too stiff. When you can't flex the boot, you can't properly move and balance.

Far more frequent is the boot is too large. Almost every 'adjust and test' for a customer after they get new boots is at least one shell size smaller.

Alignment issues can certainly prevent a skier from being able to move and balance over suitably edged skis.

In all these situations, proper evaluation can aid the skier by making the boot more of a friend and less of an enemy.

I mostly see the first problem with my athletes. I coach masters and they want 'race' boots even when they are unable to flex them due to strength and/or weight issues. Funny thing is, they won't blame the boots but will blame their technique or other factors.

 

[Josh Matta]

This has come up a few times with both my students and friends/family. The discussion goes something like this:

My turns suck because my boot is "insert quote here":

• Too tight
• Doesn't flex
• Too loose
• My heel slips
• ...etc...etc..

While there are very clear cases where a boot can cause problems for the skier, pain is a clear example of how a boot can adversely effect a skiers performance. My personal challenge is that I find that when I'm blaming the boot, it's usually the skier at fault (from my own personal experience).

My boot is going on 4 seasons old with a superfoot as a footbed. It's a race boot so there wasn't much to pack out of the liner. I can ski this boot, buckled tight or buckled loose, but if I look at a turn that was bad it I don't think that it was the boot that caused it - more likely that I didn't release the ski or the upper body was out of balance. (If I'm hard charging and want instant response I'm all over a tight boot).

As a skier/instructor - how much do you think people are throwing their boots under the bus when they're fundamentally out of balance or have other issues that need to be resolved? Or am I making up stories about my own boots and feet so I don't have to go spend more $$.

too tight - and causing pain to the point you feet can not feel what is going on, it could also cause your foot to have swelling and bone spurs if actually to tight.

Doesnt flex - could be a problem but the reality is if your ramp/forward lean are set up properly for you. the boot will flex easier and should not need to flex as much either.

too loose - I can not ski at my best with any movement of any part of my foot doing anything. This includes the heel lifting/slipping.

I find that at the low end the most common problem is boot that are far too big, just something with the proper shell fit. At the high level their is not enough emphasis places on correcting alignment issues with proper foot beds, CANTING, cuff alignment, forward lean, and ramp angle. You might as well aim for the best alignment you can have. If your born straight(well ideally slightly bow legged) and your boots RAMP angle happens to line up well with your Tib/femur ratio then you are one of the few that the stock alignment is ideal.

Boot matter a ton, I have no idea what you are getting at here. There are tons of people out there who could never be in balance because their alignment will not let them be in balance.

 

[cantunamunch]

As a skier/instructor - how much do you think people are throwing their boots under the bus when they're fundamentally out of balance or have other issues that need to be resolved? Or am I making up stories about my own boots and feet so I don't have to go spend more $$.

Well, the only way I can understand 'fundamentally out of balance' without it being due to the boot is if the person is generally bad at motion skills- but that would imply trouble walking up and down steps for example.

So I suspect we're talking about where on the

The boot is my problem <---------->I can't walk steps

spectrum we might be?

 

[oldschoolskier]

Balance, that's muscle memory training or lack of it. It has to be not thought of, just done.

Boots not being right and the problem that's something different. Can be physical or can be mental.

Physically there is something actually causing a problem, fit, stance, stiffness ETC.

Mental that is simply do you believe, or don't you believe in the boots. If you don't they won't work no matter what you do. If you do, you have a lot more tolerance on the physical and they will work.

The question becomes which are you? Physical hamper or Mentally hampered?

 

[markojp]

I started the whole alpine instruction/PSIA thing now 5 1/2 seasons back in an old 4 buckle Raichle that was very soft, had a ton of forward lean and ramp angle, etc.... and an old shot pair of Atomic 10ex's that had previously been mounted teley. I could fold the boot, but I could also compensate well enough to pass L1 and L2 that first season, but doubt I could have ever passed L3 in them. The next season I bought a great boot, but one size too large (a pretty standard performance recreational fit though) Even then, the boot helped my skiing immediately. Season 3, same boot, one size smaller and some mods to accommodate a length and volume discrepancy a la 'fit the small foot, work on the big foot'. Took that season to really get my alignment dialed in and worked very hard at 'de-compensating' my skiing.

The first two seasons I was using an old custom footbed pulled out of the teley boots. Season 3, new footbeds. Things started clicking. Season 4, did L3. Season 5 and now half way through 6, the boot is stunningly good on my big foot, I mean pretty perfect. The small foot needs some tweaking, but we're very close ( I could probably wear a 27 plug shell on my small foot and a 28 98 lasted boot on the large). This season, I had a friend make a new footbed and got even better response from everting, inverting my feet in my boots. I doubt my path to a better boot and fit is all that unique. Could I have continued on in that old Raichle and just have fun skiing? Sure. Can I ski more efficiently and effectively in my current boots? Without a doubt.

 

[Chris Geib]

Nice example of continuous refinement Marko. Been tweaking mine for longer and continue to do so...

Not many I think will go to that length. While I think the higher performance and better fitting the boot the more important it is to dial the alignment, I also think close counts; so, where I will keep chasing tweaks to dial out compensation I can also understand where some don't see the need/value.

 

[Philpug]

Nice example of continuous refinement Marko. Been tweaking mine for longer and continue to do so...

Not many I think will go to that length. While I think the higher performance and better fitting the boot the more important it is to dial the alignment, I also think close counts; so, where I will keep chasing tweaks to dial out compensation I can also understand where some don't see the need/value.

This is missed by a lot of people, many are in search of "perfection" and that really is a moving target and I am not sure it could ever be obtained, there will always be a some fine tuning along the way.

 

[cantunamunch]

Not many I think will go to that length. While I think the higher performance and better fitting the boot the more important it is to dial the alignment, I also think close counts; so, where I will keep chasing tweaks to dial out compensation I can also understand where some don't see the need/value.

At what point though does one say 'NVM fixing the boot, I need to work on reconditioning my fitness and muscle balance?' I am specifically thinking of the early 2Ks clamour over adducted boots, where less than a month of inline drills could completely reform the underlying balance, though the question extends much further.

No boot state is final as no body state is final.

 

[Philpug]

At what point though does one say 'NVM fixing the boot, I need to work on reconditioning my fitness and muscle balance?' I am specifically thinking of the early 2Ks clamour over addicted boots, where less than a month of inline drills could completely reform the underlying balance, though the question extends much further.

That almost circles back to the OP's question.

 

[cantunamunch]

That almost circles back to the OP's question.

I was hoping it circled back entirely and rephrased the question as less static-state.

 

[Chris Geib]

At what point though does one say 'NVM fixing the boot, I need to work on reconditioning my fitness and muscle balance?' I am specifically thinking of the early 2Ks clamour over addicted boots, where less than a month of inline drills could completely reform the underlying balance, though the question extends much further.

No boot state is final as no body state is final.

I think that point is always! Continuously working on all aspects (fitness, technique, gear, mindset, etc.) in parallel I think would be logical. Equipment is just one aspect.

Certainly value in getting boot fit/alignment dialed in to eliminate compensations that excessively undermines performance, but chasing that next ski that will improve your skiing might be less beneficial then applying those resources towards a good coach...

 

[James]

Boots are probably more to blame than we think. On the other hand, young kids,< 7, can ski pretty well with boots much too big. It's not uncommon for them to fall and the foot comes out of the boot. But they also have spaghetti joints.

 

[AmyPJ]

As the terminal boot-fit-chaser, I think both play a huge role. Had I not had my left boot canted right of the bat, I'd still be struggling mightily to even flatten that ski. Had I not tinkered with my right boot for the past 55 ski days, I would not have figured out a big, fat pad along my medial tibia is VERY helpful in my overall alignment. I chose to hit the technique issue at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. And I do think they change with age, injuries, and as the boots pack out. Also, fatter skis exacerbate any fit issues.

So, yes, it's justified to "blame the boot" but there are so many other technique issues, fitness issues, etc. that can play into all of it.

 

[Philpug]

Boots are probably more to blame than we think. On the other hand, young kids,< 7, can ski pretty well with boots much too big. It's not uncommon for them to fall and the foot comes out of the boot. But they also have spaghetti joints.

Thats not the boot, thats the parents insisting that the boot for 10 year old little Johnny has a enough room for growth that it gets him through college..and maybe even his first marrage. A "two finger fit" in a 19.5 is vastly different than in a 27.5.

 

[AmyPJ]

I think that point is always! Continuously working on all aspects (fitness, technique, gear, mindset, etc.) in parallel I think would be logical. Equipment is just one aspect.

Certainly value in getting boot fit/alignment dialed in to eliminate compensations that excessively undermines performance, but chasing that next ski that will improve your skiing might be less beneficial then applying those resources towards a good coach...

Chris, I agree with all of this except the last statement. I finally demoed a ski after about 30 days of frustrated skiing this season--frustrated with my boots, frustrated with myself, and this ski transformed my skiing in ONE DAY. I was previously skiing on very highly rated skis, but I just felt like I was fighting them. Since getting on my new skis (bought them the day I demoed them) I have continue to improve every time I ski. My confidence has gone through the roof (mostly.) And my fit and alignment issues, while still there, were not nearly as bothersome. Skiing was becoming a frustrating chore prior to these skis. Now, the joy is back and skiing is a blast again!

 

[markojp]

Thats not the boot, thats the parents insisting that the boot for 10 year old little Johnny has a enough room for growth that it gets him through college..and maybe even his first marrage. A "two finger fit" in a 19.5 is vastly different than in a 27.5.

Absolutley. 9 out of 10 parents who bring a boot into the shop to see if they're still ok for this season are very happy when we check and say, "yep, and probably next couple of years too."

 

[Chris Geib]

All within reason, Amy! Certainly if the ski is not a match then that is a change I would expect needs made. Likewise as your technique envelope increases, so will the spectrum of skis you can operate comfortably (even if not ideally) ...within reason...

 

[cantunamunch]

Absolutley. 9 out of 10 parents who bring a boot into the shop to see if they're still ok for this season are very happy when we check and say, "yep, and probably next couple of years too."

Beats double-lacing a pair of sze 36 vinyl Alpinas...