• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Bumps vs steeps vs trees vs carving

Prosper

This is the way.
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
1,124
Location
Ken Caryl, CO
In the 25+ page Percentage of skiers that can carve a turn thread there's a bunch of discussion of whether strong carving skills leads to being able to ski other terrain proficiently with some difference of opinion. This got me thinking about my own skiing, the tools and techniques I try to use in different terrain and what is most challenging to me. I hoping this thread can be more about what terrain you struggle with most, why and a sharing of ideas on how you're addressing those issues.

For me, like many others, it's the single or double black, moderately steep bump runs with big moguls that I find most difficult to ski well. The constantly changing demand on fore-aft balance is the challenge for me. Trying to be more proactive rather than reactive to the bumps seems to be helpful. What that means for me is starting tall and actively flexing my knees and ankles to absorb the mogul. If I relax my knees and let the mogul push on on my feet I find it frequently knocks me into the back seat. I think of it as more of an active process and trying to catch the mogul with my feet and legs much like catching a medicine ball thrown to you by actively bringing the weight of the ball into your body with your hands and arms. Then on the backside of the mogul I push my tips down on the snow to maintain ski-snow contact, try to keep my shoulders/chest moving forward to topple and get tall again. Focusing on raising my tails or heels to my butt to helps although too much of it results in more of a hopping movement. On flat terrain working on dolphin turns has been helpful, although my toenails don't like them. My bump skiing is definitely a work in progress and yes, more than any other terrain, the moguls prove it.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,686
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
For me it was a combination of two thing: absorption, and a proper traditional (non-edge-locked) short radius turn.

On the absorption side, if you have a perfect (not really achievable, but for the sake of argument, let's pretend) long travel suspension in your off road vehicle, the vehicle just moves along and doesn't know the bumps are there as the wheels go up and down. The suspension "erases" the bumps. As I got better at doing flex to release arc-2-arc short radius turns and at absorbing virtual bumps on groomers, I also got better at absorbing real bumps, but I had to know/understand to do it. I sometimes miss the obvious.

An exercise to practice in order to improve, is to make short radius turns through the bumps in a random pattern of your own choosing with total disregard of where the bumps are, just "erase" them as they come.

On the traditional short radius turn. I used to ski every thing as though it was a DH race, making the cleanest arcs I could, and slamming on brakes if I needed to slow down. I relied on strength and reflexes and good balance. I eventually decided this was not the way.

Of course I immediately jumped on the idea that I had to pivot my skis. This only hurt my knees. As I did further research into turns to use in moguls, I was surprised to find that the instructions I had read in some books written for a particular teaching system that shall remain nameless applied equally to turns that were not arc-2-arc pure carved turns (I had read the books from the viewpoint of someone who had been doing nothing but pure carved turns, blended with hockey stops when needed). Surprise, surprise! Who knew?

Long story short, you need a bullet-proof traditional short radius turn. There's a thread I started here https://www.SkiTalk.com/threads/wha...aditional-short-radius-non-carved-turn.22665/

Other things I've noticed on my quest to improve my sucky bump skiing:
Once you can ski any slope as slow as you want, it's easy.
The more speed you have the harder it is to loose speed, it's not linear.
You do need a certain amount of speed to get the skis to work; too little speed is harder;
Waiting until near the end of a Saturday afternoon, when you're too tired to risk high speed skiing is not the best approach; all the backsides of the bumps at Blue Mountain Collingwood are pure ice;
Driving your tips down the back side is a great plan, even if it doesn't give you much speed control on ice. Maintain contact between ski and snow;
Practice that short radius turn on groomers, not just in bumps;
Blue bumps is the place to learn;
More time in practice = better results.
 
Last edited:

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,871
Location
Europe
skiiing moguls at a high level is imho way way way harder than doing som hip scrapes while carving.

I feel tight trees & bumps are kinda the same level though, quite often the one follows the other, at least here.


What he said...

I have mad respect for people like Reilly, Paul Lorenz etc but I admire even more people who can ski moguls and tight trees at high level. And FAST.

Probably because for me trees are for peeing rather than skiing and I dont dare venture there with my skis on. :ogbiggrin: :ogbiggrin:
 
Last edited:

KevinF

Gathermeister-New England
Team Gathermeister
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,348
Location
New England
What he said...

I have mad respect for people like Reilly, Paul Lorenz etc but I admire even more people who can ski moguls and tight trees at high level. And FAST.

Probably because for me trees are for peeing rather than skiing and I dont dare venture there with my skis on. :ogbiggrin: :ogbiggrin:

Pretty sure Reilly, Lorenz, etc. can ski bumps pretty fast any time they feel like it:


One thing I really like about this clip is that at the end he's back to skiing groomers and the movements appear to be the same as when he's skiing bumps. Slower vs faster, bumps vs. groomers, it's all the same basic movements.
 

Mike Thomas

Whiteroom
Industry Insider
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,195
What he said...

I have mad respect for people like Reilly, Paul Lorenz etc but I admire even more people who can ski moguls and tight trees at high level. And FAST.

Probably because for me trees are for peeing rather than skiing and I dont dare venture there with my skis on. :ogbiggrin: :ogbiggrin:
Uhmmm... what? You haven't seen those guys shred bumps? Because they sure do. (they're dorks for sure but they rip)

And yes, skiing moguls well is the single hardest thing to do skiing. There is no prosthesis that can be purchased to replace developing skill in moguls. There is no 'right' ski that fixes poor skill, you need to do the work. I love bump skiing because of that. If you can ski bumps well you can ski trees or steeps.
 
Last edited:

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,775
Location
Denver, CO
skiiing moguls at a high level is imho way way way harder than doing som hip scrapes while carving.

I feel tight trees & bumps are kinda the same level though, quite often the one follows the other, at least here.


Here in Colorado you get a lot of runs that combine Tight Trees, Steeps and Moguls due to being overskied to death. The trifecta of dread.
 

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,871
Location
Europe
Pretty sure Reilly, Lorenz, etc. can ski bumps pretty fast any time they feel like it


Yeah, you know what I meant. I am sure they can, I just use them as example of someone who can carve extremely well because this is what I am constantly watching them doing on their channel.

Moguls-I meant them crazy SOBs that move like Pixar characters down them bumps, this looks just unreal to me. This is a different sport altogether.

I mean this mogul skiing:


And this trees skiing:



This looks to me totally impossible.
 
Last edited:

Scruffy

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Posts
2,450
Location
Upstate NY
In the 25+ page Percentage of skiers that can carve a turn thread there's a bunch of discussion of whether strong carving skills leads to being able to ski other terrain proficiently with some difference of opinion. This got me thinking about my own skiing, the tools and techniques I try to use in different terrain and what is most challenging to me. I hoping this thread can be more about what terrain you struggle with most, why and a sharing of ideas on how you're addressing those issues.

For me, like many others, it's the single or double black, moderately steep bump runs with big moguls that I find most difficult to ski well. The constantly changing demand on fore-aft balance is the challenge for me. Trying to be more proactive rather than reactive to the bumps seems to be helpful. What that means for me is starting tall and actively flexing my knees and ankles to absorb the mogul. If I relax my knees and let the mogul push on on my feet I find it frequently knocks me into the back seat. I think of it as more of an active process and trying to catch the mogul with my feet and legs much like catching a medicine ball thrown to you by actively bringing the weight of the ball into your body with your hands and arms. Then on the backside of the mogul I push my tips down on the snow to maintain ski-snow contact, try to keep my shoulders/chest moving forward to topple and get tall again. Focusing on raising my tails or heels to my butt to helps although too much of it results in more of a hopping movement. On flat terrain working on dolphin turns has been helpful, although my toenails don't like them. My bump skiing is definitely a work in progress and yes, more than any other terrain, the moguls prove it.

I'll tell you my mogul journey in hopes that it may help you in steep double black bumps. I approached learning to ski the moguls quite the opposite as most--that is from the steeps first.

A bit of background - I had been a XC and a XCD ( cross country downhill ) backcountry skier before my foray into alpine skiing, that was many moons ago now. I only got interested in alpine because of a series of snow drought years that left me jonesing for sliding on snow- I figure I'd go to where they made snow if I had to. Once I got into alpine lift served skiing I enjoyed the challenge of it, but also always had my eye on developing skills for steep backcounty lines. I had been deep into telemark skiing, and through several backcountry clinics you learn that you can ski steep terrain even with only a moderate level of skill. Backcountry touring is about the up as much as the down. You can learn techniques to get down anything. Obviously, an intermediate skier armed with those techniques doesn't necessarily look like a flowing expert skier, but you'll get down safely.

At the same time, I also got myself into alpine ski racing. The racers I was hanging with didn't really care to ski moguls, they only wanted to practice their race carves when not in the gates. I enjoyed racing, but also longed to ski the rest of the mountain, so unlike them I did both.

The more I got into lift served alpine skiing, the more I wanted to ski the biggest steepest lines I could, and
started traveling to ski the toughest stuff I could even as only an intermediate back then. You see, the steeps didn't scare me from my experience with skiing them in leather boots and free heel gear. But one thing you get on steep terrain at lift served areas that you may not experience in the backcountry is moguls. And if it hasn't snowed any significant amount in the past number of weeks, those bumps can be quite big and gnarly.

So I had to learn to negotiate big bumps on steep terrain before I learned to bump ski on lower angle bump runs. In fact, for many years, lower angle bump runs confounded me while I was perfectly at home on steep bump runs.

Big bumps on steep terrain ( think stuff off of Deep Termerity at Highlands, T3 and Alta chutes at JH, for example) present an opportunity that lower angle bumps don't-- by nature of the angle of the slope, the face of the bumps present a flat spot, a table, a stair step so to speak. On lower angle bumps, the face of the bump is often sticking up at you like a sideways shark fin. On the steep moguls, my approach was to stop or pause on each face ( stair steep ) of the mogul using a deep flex of ankles, knees. and hip, and at the same time a strong edge set, and angulated and countered and disciplined upper body over down hill edge--coupled with a strong down hill pole plant. Stopping or pausing on the face is critical, especially if it's icy. Then ski down through the trough extending as you do, and then up to the next mogul's face and flex and pause again. As I got better, the pause became shorter and shorter until I was linking turns in that terrain.

You have to be really good at short carved turns and being able to stop on a dime anywhere within the turn cycle, so I'd practice that everywhere I could outside of that steep mogully terrain. Hop and jump turns are good to practice also. Retraction turns are must. The old pedal turn for steeps is good to know too.

You mentioned "Focusing on raising my tails or heels to my butt to helps although too much of it results in more of a hopping movement. " that's fine in steep moguls. Sometimes a hop is fine as long as it's not throwing you off balance. These days, I often hop off the top of steep moguls, but again you need skills to do it so you remain in dynamic balance.

I think if you approach steep mogul skiing as a different discipline than lower angle bump skiing it helps. Don't think of zipper lining the steeps. If you already have lower angle bump skiing, you're ahead of the game, but you need a different mindset for the steeps. Take it slow, one turn at a time. Soon you'll be linking and flowing turns down the steep mogully terrain, but one needs to do the work of getting the new skill set first.

Hope that helps, if not, ignore it--it's free advice after all.
 

Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
Instructor
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Posts
688
Location
Kirkwood, California
Then on the backside of the mogul I push my tips down on the snow to maintain ski-snow contact, try to keep my shoulders/chest moving forward to topple and get tall again.

That's your problem right there.

When you push your tips down, you open your ankle joint. Which moves your mass behind your binding.

Also, I noticed that you never used the word "pole" in your opening post.

Without a solid short turn you can't ski moguls.

Without a well timed pole plant, you can't do a solid short turn.

I teach a reaching pole plant on little bumps to intermediates. To intermediates. To intermediates. I tell them never turn without a pole plant EVER. I ask them is it easier to twist the swivel chair in front of the desk without or with having your finger tips on the desk? Like Gellie says "To Make Something Turn, You Need to Make Something Else Stable."

That gentle stability comes from the "reaching pole touch." It gets your tips pressured (assuming that your ankle joints are locked into an "L" right angle and your heels are behind you) so that the tip of your ski is making the short turn on the back of the bump by full front of ski contact while the tails are in the air behind you.

I noticed you mentioned "Heels "to Head" which is another Gellie phrase. I turn/rotate my skis down the backside of the bump, but something tells me that Gellie and these other phenomenal skiers are actually using front-side heavy tip TORQUE and ski EDGE to make that backside turn for them rather than a rotary tip steering movement.

I am probably not as good a bump skier as you, or maybe just as good, or slightly better. So don't look to my bump skiing as an example. I am however determined to make my bump skiing better. Yesterday, I again talked to our Director about making a "Bump Tank" on our Mtn next season. He had one when he was Whistler's Director, so he seems open to it for us too.

In the meantime, I cannot overemphasize how helpful Tom Gellie's subscription video series has been for me in my teaching and in my personal skiing. I highly recommend it. You must watch and rewatch for everything to absorb. To me, statements which seemed innocuous become momentous on the Mtn.

I am posting this for the sheer beauty of it. It is one of my favorite video clips ever:


Best of luck, thank you for the thread, keep posting your progress so we can all prosper from it.
 
Last edited:

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
Skier
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
5,917
Location
West of CDA South of Canada
Here in Colorado you get a lot of runs that combine Tight Trees, Steeps and Moguls due to being overskied to death. The trifecta of dread.

Think this is everywhere if it hasn't snowed for a while.
The trees after they have bumped up and have variable crud on them.
Find my self slowing down and getting more tentative in them. These are the wrong tactics for skiing bumps anytime or anywhere; but convincing brain to 'stop that' is a problem. Over the years I have gotten too familiar with too many trees, and the brainstem just won't forget it.
Crud, bumps, and trees are my issue. 2 out of 3 I can deal with. (to the extend the body will allow)
If solo will often stop and reset when it feels wrong. In a group setting that is tougher to do.
Ageing can be so unfriendly.
 

chris_the_wrench

Spinning wrenches and throwing spokes.
Skier
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Posts
1,392
Location
Chinook Pass
I want to see kings and queens of corbets or fwt have those skiers blast a bump run before they huck themselves off cliffs. Mogul/tight tree skiing is very challenging in my mind, but i prefer fast and steep pow. Bumps are also something that east/midwest/western skiers can all find challenging runs to do. 300’ of Wisconsin vert all bumped out will get your legs talking to ya.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,686
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
@Tony Storaro Regarding the impossible seeming skiing, did you ever see the movie Groundhog Day? It helps if you know the run well.
BTW the only thing that impressed me, even though I'm not a tumbling athlete and can't do the tricks (I'm jaded) about the skiing is the recklessness of skiing onto trails without a glance uphill (go-pro is helmet mount), and reckless overtaking of other skiers.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,937
Location
Reno, eNVy
I want to see kings and queens of corbets or fwt have those skiers blast a bump run before they huck themselves off cliffs.
We forget sometimes how good good skiers are because usually we are exposed to just one aspect of their skiing. So many high level skiers come from either race/freestyle academys or even strong big mountain programs. They don't get to that level of doing doubles into Corberts just because they have a brass set, there is years of training there.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,775
Location
Denver, CO

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top