• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Bumps vs steeps vs trees vs carving

jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
4,496
Location
Colorado
What they dont show are the nasty spills and the concussions.

Looks cool, but lets not forget the cost. Rarely seen in this instagram / youtube age.

I really doubt Caston fell much if at all during the filming of this. He may look like he is on the edge of control. But that is more his chosen style I suspect than him actually being on the edge of control.

Now some of his lines in his "Church" edit? Those are the high stakes.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Prosper

Prosper

This is the way.
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 2, 2017
Posts
1,126
Location
Ken Caryl, CO
That's your problem right there.

When you push your tips down, you open your ankle joint. Which moves your mass behind your binding.

Also, I noticed that you never used the word "pole" in your opening post.

Without a solid short turn you can't ski moguls.

Without a well timed pole plant, you can't do a solid short turn.

That gentle stability comes from the "reaching pole touch." It gets your tips pressured (assuming that your ankle joints are locked into an "L" right angle and your heels are behind you) so that the tip of your ski is making the short turn on the back of the bump by full front of ski contact while the tails are in the air behind you.

I noticed you mentioned "Heels "to Head" which is another Gellie phrase. I turn/rotate my skis down the backside of the bump, but something tells me that Gellie and these other phenomenal skiers are actually using front-side heavy tip TORQUE and ski EDGE to make that backside turn for them rather than a rotary tip steering movement.
Thanks for the post. My pole plant and short turns are pretty solid. I think you’re probably right with the comment about the tips. When doing it wrong, pushing the tips down the backside of the bump can open up my ankle, lead to me getting aft and then have to recover. When I’m going it right my ankle stays closed, my weight continues to move forward and I get the weightless or toppling sensation and my my tips feel like they are getting on edge, carving or being guided into the new turn. Sometimes the cue that works for me is heels to the butt. It definitely feels more like an edging movement rather than a rotary one. I probably need a trained eye to do some MA.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,777
Location
Denver, CO
I really doubt Caston fell much if at all during the filming of this. He may look like he is on the edge of control. But that is more his chosen style I suspect than him actually being on the edge of control.

Now some of his lines in his "Church" edit? Those are the high stakes.

I dont mean during filming but throughout career. Mogul skiers look amazing until they dont, their crashes are sudden and spectacular. Kinda like downhillers.
 

Tim Hodgson

PSIA Level II Alpine
Instructor
Joined
Aug 20, 2016
Posts
688
Location
Kirkwood, California
Interesting you mention weightlessness. Tom Gellie does not prefer "weightlessness" in the videos I have watched. Weightlessness means that the ski is not engaged with the snow. The tool can do nothing (except rotary) when it is not engaged in the snow. Also see Ballou video above, "maintain ski snow contact." That is the opposite of weightlessness.

@Philpug knows what this thread needs. It needs an angel. SEND ME AN ANGEL!!!

@Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston
 
Last edited:

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,777
Location
Denver, CO
On a side note when I actually met Marcus 2~3 years ago he had a cast on his arm.
 

anders_nor

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Posts
2,623
Location
on snow
Interesting you mention weightlessness. Tom Gellie does not prefer "weightlessness" in the videos I have watched. Weightlessness means that the ski is not engaged with the snow. The tool can do nothing (except rotary) when it is not engaged in the snow. Also see Ballou video above, "maintain ski snow contact." That is the opposite of weightlessness.

I know what this thread needs. It needs an angel. SEND ME AN ANGEL!!!

@Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston @Marcus Caston
Marcus Caston is the defnition of awesome, I could just watch him ski for hours on hours.
 

PowHog

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Jan 2, 2021
Posts
205
Location
Eurozone
Yeah, you know what I meant. I am sure they can, I just use them as example of someone who can carve extremely well because this is what I am constantly watching them doing on their channel.

Moguls-I meant them crazy SOBs that move like Pixar characters down them bumps, this looks just unreal to me. This is a different sport altogether.

I mean this mogul skiing:


Brossard was probably the smoothest all-time mogul skier. What a suspension this guy had!
 

chris_the_wrench

Spinning wrenches and throwing spokes.
Skier
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Posts
1,392
Location
Chinook Pass
. They don't get to that level of doing doubles into Corberts just because they have a brass set, there is years of training there.

Umm yeah I kinda agree with that. Tons of work and training, but I look at someone like Marcus Caston. Probably my favorite pro skier, that guy can rail EVERYTHING. He's got the racing background. Kings, alot more time in the park backgrounds.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,777
Location
Denver, CO

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,554
Location
Breckenridge, CO
What sets the experts, the guys you want to watch skiing, apart from the rest is that they don't have to think about what happens next, it just happens. Time on skis, training and plain old experience, for the most part is what distinguishes these skiers. I know this sounds obvious but so many comments I read about people that aren't at the level they want to be is about thinking about their balance, their body position, their whatever while they are skiing. It is when you don't have to think about those things that your skiing will take a leap forward. I appreciate that you have to ski consciously before you can ski sub-consciously, but that is the biggest difference. The time it takes to think about your next move, your balance or anything you are working on is the time it takes to miss making your turn or the bump smoothly.

I had the advantage of double sessions when I was in high school so all winter long I got 3 hours of training in every weekday. Quality coaching (training) and plenty of races (experience) and time on the snow advanced my skiing.

Now, when I ski I rarely think about how I'm going to ski, I just do it. There are those times when I feel an edge slip when I want to be arcing that remind myself about my lateral balance, but otherwise, it really is a no (conscious) brainer to make a run happen. I do evaluate lines and approaches, but once the skis start sliding, I'm in the zone. Even racing, I only think tactically, never about the actual skiing. The tactic may be to start my turn earlier or let it run out, but it isn't about how I'm going to tip my skis to make that happen. That leaves more mental time to evaluate the course and make adjustments and stay on top of my line.

It is no different in the trees, steeps or bumps. Your 'machine' needs to know what to do so you can focus on your run. The guys that are making it look easy have done it so many times that they don't have to think about retraction, extension or edge angles. The old adage, practice makes perfect, really does apply here. One area I can improve is bumps and while I still actively think about how I'm going to respond to each bump I try to remove myself from the conscious skiing to just letting it happen. Sometimes it work, sometimes it doesn't. Practice and training outside of the targeted venue (trees, bumps, steeps) allows you to work on the muscle memory and effective movements you are seeking without the objective hazards (trees, bumps, steeps) that can interfere with your mind's ability to master those movements.

One thing that I truly believe in is positive visualization. Each time you take an imaginary run through the bumps is just as productive as a real run. The advantage is that you can do it slo-mo and think about how your legs, feet and body are going to deal with each bump and achieve success. That mental run will be just as beneficial as a real run, actually more so, because you won't get tired and can go right back and do it again. You can skip the visualized lift ride.
 

Ogg

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Posts
3,490
Location
Long Island, NY
What sets the experts, the guys you want to watch skiing, apart from the rest is that they don't have to think about what happens next, it just happens.

I think this is why really good skiers, particularly those who learned early, don't necessarily make good instructors or coaches. Some people don't remember ever having to think about it.
 

Blue Streak

I like snow.
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,266
Location
Edwards, Colorado
What sets the experts, the guys you want to watch skiing, apart from the rest is that they don't have to think about what happens next, it just happens. Time on skis, training and plain old experience, for the most part is what distinguishes these skiers. I know this sounds obvious but so many comments I read about people that aren't at the level they want to be is about thinking about their balance, their body position, their whatever while they are skiing. It is when you don't have to think about those things that your skiing will take a leap forward. I appreciate that you have to ski consciously before you can ski sub-consciously, but that is the biggest difference. The time it takes to think about your next move, your balance or anything you are working on is the time it takes to miss making your turn or the bump smoothly.

I had the advantage of double sessions when I was in high school so all winter long I got 3 hours of training in every weekday. Quality coaching (training) and plenty of races (experience) and time on the snow advanced my skiing.

Now, when I ski I rarely think about how I'm going to ski, I just do it. There are those times when I feel an edge slip when I want to be arcing that remind myself about my lateral balance, but otherwise, it really is a no (conscious) brainer to make a run happen. I do evaluate lines and approaches, but once the skis start sliding, I'm in the zone. Even racing, I only think tactically, never about the actual skiing. The tactic may be to start my turn earlier or let it run out, but it isn't about how I'm going to tip my skis to make that happen. That leaves more mental time to evaluate the course and make adjustments and stay on top of my line.

It is no different in the trees, steeps or bumps. Your 'machine' needs to know what to do so you can focus on your run. The guys that are making it look easy have done it so many times that they don't have to think about retraction, extension or edge angles. The old adage, practice makes perfect, really does apply here. One area I can improve is bumps and while I still actively think about how I'm going to respond to each bump I try to remove myself from the conscious skiing to just letting it happen. Sometimes it work, sometimes it doesn't. Practice and training outside of the targeted venue (trees, bumps, steeps) allows you to work on the muscle memory and effective movements you are seeking without the objective hazards (trees, bumps, steeps) that can interfere with your mind's ability to master those movements.

One thing that I truly believe in is positive visualization. Each time you take an imaginary run through the bumps is just as productive as a real run. The advantage is that you can do it slo-mo and think about how your legs, feet and body are going to deal with each bump and achieve success. That mental run will be just as beneficial as a real run, actually more so, because you won't get tired and can go right back and do it again. You can skip the visualized lift ride.
Great post!
 

SSSdave

life is short precious ...don't waste it
Skier
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Posts
2,516
Location
Silicon Valley
@Doug, well written post that I totally relate with, thank you. This is all about the recent year's understanding of neuralplasticity that has overturned much incorrect decades of science dogma in the way our brain learns and forms usable skills including motor skills. And has now been recently strongly embraced by sports experts. In essence a person becomes what they do instead of the old paradigm that people are generally limited by innate potential abilities they are born with that they might then develop.

With bumps for those without enough experience, one has inadequate time to think about movements as a brain's visual occipital lobe system has not adequately created associated nerve pathways to neural controlled muscles. So to efficiently ski down bump fall lines much of one's body movement must flow out of an already developed visual and perceptual controlled neuromuscular system. Just like myriad other evolved animal species do including that chipmunk near your campground running over complex piles of talus boulders at warp speed.

For a simple to understand explanation, read first 5 short paragraphs in below link stopping before "Accelerated gains".


https://blog.haloneuro.com/the-athlete-s-guide-to-the-brain-hyperplasticity-3686a46f02e8

It is why regardless of how much one knows about properly performing an athletic movement, one must also physically repetitively perform such in order to create new neuromuscular nerve cell pathways so those movements become natural. As Doug wrote "What sets the experts, the guys you want to watch skiing, apart from the rest is that they don't have to think about what happens next, it just happens."
 

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,871
Location
Europe
For a simple to understand explanation, read first 5 short paragraphs in below link stopping before "Accelerated gains".

https://blog.haloneuro.com/the-athlete-s-guide-to-the-brain-hyperplasticity-3686a46f02e8

You really need to paste the link to this article here:


Hugely important.
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,554
Location
Breckenridge, CO
I think this is why really good skiers, particularly those who learned early, don't necessarily make good instructors or coaches. Some people don't remember ever having to think about it.
Quite true. That's one of the reasons I check out the instructor post in Ski School. They remind me of how easy it is to be distanced from the learning process. One Christmas vacation when I was an instructor at Wildcat, I took snowboarding lessons with the primary goal of being a beginner again.
 

Brad J

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
872
Location
Newbury, Ma.
As an older skier in NE before real grooming everyone skied bumps at some point of each day. In my formative years 8-14 I took a few lessons and learned to do a short swing turn which IMO is the basic turn for mogul skiing which is the same basic turn in trees. Learning to carve is a skill I learned /Learning much later (passed 20 years) and is a valuable tool at times in the bumps , especially holding a line controlling speed in the backside of a mogul. Its not one skill that's important they all are . A good skier need to instantly reach in the toolbox pull up the correct skill and apply it with out thought. Thats why I ski mostly Off-piste when available , Its just so much more fun for me.
 

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
Skier
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
5,920
Location
West of CDA South of Canada
Always thought I did not THINK about skiing while free skiing. Last month had an ah ha moment on the topic.
Attended an on line seminar for work. The speaker spent 1 1/2 on "Mindfulness" and I was not thinking about work. Does this sound familiar to anybody else?
You immerse yourself in to something to the point where you are not thinking about anything, but you are aware of everything. This is foundational in a lot of Asian skill training and religions he was saying.
When skiing aggressively lunch, phone calls, or evening activities are not occupying concentration. Snow conditions, ski tipping, weighting, and steering are (and 100 other details) but not consciously, they are being handled at a "mindful" level, experience has taken over.
It sounds a bit new age, but this is some very old stuff. My permanently bent mind found it interesting.

P.S. Your tax money paid for the seminar, just thought you should know.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top