Cliffed Out

[Rod9301]

Climbing is always less dangerous than down climbing.
If you got to a point where you see it cliffs out, there's snow above you, so it cannot be dangerous.

The only time it might be sketchy is on unconsolidated snow steeper then 50 degrees. So since the op is asking this question, he obviously doesn't ski 50 degrees terrain.

 

[Rod9301]

And no, topos will not help, even the most detailed ones.

 

[Nathanvg]

And no, topos will not help, even the most detailed ones.

To clarify i was agreeing with you

Climbing is always less dangerous than down climbing.
If you got to a point where you see it cliffs out, there's snow above you, so it cannot be dangerous.

The only time it might be sketchy is on unconsolidated snow steeper then 50 degrees. So since the op is asking this question, he obviously doesn't ski 50 degrees terrain.

I'm not out there measuring but I'm pretty sure the tough stuff I skied exceeds 50 degrees at Taos, Crested Butte, Aspen Highlands, Squaw, Mt Rose, etc. But I don't think it has to be that steep to be more dangerous to climb up vs ski down. There are often skied off rocky/icy patches right above cliffs that make it harder to ascend than to ski and leap. I tried but couldn't find any great examples on youtube. The below link is an example where I would not recommend up climbing but I can't recommend leaping in this instance either. Fortunately, I've never made that poor of a choice but I have made choices that were somewhat similar on a smaller scale.

*It appears this video is legit. It was from Whistler and the boarder got roped out safely.

Terrifying moment snowboarder get stuck on snowy cliff in Canada

A snowboarder clung onto a cliff for dear life for two hours after he got stuck on a mountain at the Whistler Blackcomb ski resort in Canada. The man was reportedly uninjured in the incident.

www.dailymail.co.uk

VIDEO: Snowboarder Stuck on Cliff-Face For Hours at Whistler Blackcomb, BC - SnowBrains

This is intense. A snowboarder became trapped on a cliff at Blackcomb ski resort, BC in the Spanky’s Ladder area “a couple of weeks ago.” It’s being reported that this guy was rescued after hanging onto this cliff for 1-2 hours before ski patrol was able to rescue him. He was reportedly...

snowbrains.com

 

[Rod9301]

To clarify i was agreeing with you


I'm not out there measuring but I'm pretty sure the tough stuff I skied exceeds 50 degrees at Taos, Crested Butte, Aspen Highlands, Squaw, Mt Rose, etc. But I don't think it has to be that steep to be more dangerous to climb up vs ski down. There are often skied off rocky/icy patches right above cliffs that make it harder to ascend than to ski and leap. I tried but couldn't find any great examples on youtube. The below link is an example where I would not recommend up climbing but I can't recommend leaping in this instance either. Fortunately, I've never made that poor of a choice but I have made choices that were somewhat similar on a smaller scale.

*It appears this video is legit. It was from Whistler and the boarder got roped out safely.

Terrifying moment snowboarder get stuck on snowy cliff in Canada

A snowboarder clung onto a cliff for dear life for two hours after he got stuck on a mountain at the Whistler Blackcomb ski resort in Canada. The man was reportedly uninjured in the incident.

www.dailymail.co.uk

VIDEO: Snowboarder Stuck on Cliff-Face For Hours at Whistler Blackcomb, BC - SnowBrains

This is intense. A snowboarder became trapped on a cliff at Blackcomb ski resort, BC in the Spanky’s Ladder area “a couple of weeks ago.” It’s being reported that this guy was rescued after hanging onto this cliff for 1-2 hours before ski patrol was able to rescue him. He was reportedly...

snowbrains.com

50 degrees is pretty steep, at squaw two turns on extra, Rose has nothing near 50.

Not to be argumentative, but if it's icy on top, most people would not continue to ski beyond it.

 

[Castle Dave]

Mt Baker is divided in half by Razorhone Canyon. More than once I watched ski patrol perform rope rescue of some stupid skier/border who ignored the signs and ropes.

 

[Andy Mink]

Rose has nothing near 50.

The Chutes at Rose run between 40 and 55. There really is some no joke terrain there.

 

[fatbob]

ducking a rope at Whistler if you don't know exactly what is beyond is never a good idea.

my philosophy is you'll always get more turns in than when your wasting time hunting for them.

Especially so from Whistler peak - Cakehole is a real trap and people have a totally miserable time after being seduced by the oh so fresh prospects

 

[Jacob]

Especially so from Whistler peak - Cakehole is a real trap and people have a totally miserable time after being seduced by the oh so fresh prospects

I remember an instructor in the Alps once telling my group that, if someone hasn’t skied it yet, then there’s probably a good reason.

It’s always worth considering that when everything is getting tracked out and you find a patch that’s untouched.

 

[Jacob]

So one question to the group, at what point in the video would you have turned around? (assume the area was not roped off since I agree that's the best answer in this particular situation) It's often a hard decision because you know climbing is a big effort, you know climbing is better than getting hurt but you don't know what exactly is below. Skiing "a little" farther almost always solves the problem but it's a gamble of either more climbing or injury risk.

On first viewing, I thought the pair should’ve started traversing right rather than left at the 2:00 mark, but that was based on the limited view I had from the skier’s POV. It looked like the terrain sloped downward and could be scoped out from the side. In the end, it looks like that was actually the easier option compared to what they ended up doing, but it was a lucky guess.

Having skied in the Alps for the last ~15 seasons, I’m just in the habit of scoping everything I ski. There are just too many unmarked hazards in the Alps that can kill you to be jumping in blind.

 

[fatbob]

Having skied in the Alps for the last ~15 seasons, I’m just in the habit of scoping everything I ski. There are just too many unmarked hazards in the Alps that can kill you to be jumping in blind.

I actually find N American inbounds more difficult - In the Alps I know that going in blind can kill you. Over the pond it is more tempting to take a guess that if it is skied it must go and end up with some micro PITA nav problems.

 

[Posaune]

Mt Baker is divided in half by Razorhone Canyon. More than once I watched ski patrol perform rope rescue of some stupid skier/border who ignored the signs and ropes.
View attachment 149823

They've mitigated the problem of cliff-outs a bit by roping off entire sections of the ski area and designating them "extreme danger zones" that are open, but you've been warned. All of The Chute and Pan Face as well as Gabl's are thusly marked.

 

[Jacob]

I actually find N American inbounds more difficult - In the Alps I know that going in blind can kill you. Over the pond it is more tempting to take a guess that if it is skied it must go and end up with some micro PITA nav problems.

I find that my habit of scoping before skiing tends to follow me back to NA now. Whenever I’m on the lift in NA, I find that I’m looking for hazards and exits without even thinking about it, which then seems funny when I realise what I’m doing.

 

[crosscountry]

Lots of good tips. To summarize tips so far:

1. Use topo or other maps to identify risks
2. Visually inspect line from below
3. Check with patrol
4. Climb out when in doubt

1-3 are great ways to avoid undesired terrain but they only help so much. For example, Rod is spot on:

I only use 2 & 3. Not just "reduce risk" either. I make sure I can see a clear path and an exit (or trust when patrol say there's a easy to follow clear path) I'm a chicken.

I've only had to climb back up once. That was the one time I violated the 2 & 3 rule. Not only was it exhausting. It was also getting dark. The slow progress was maddening. Never violate rule 2 & 3 again.

So one question to the group, at what point in the video would you have turned around? (assume the area was not roped off since I agree that's the best answer in this particular situation)

My experience so far is if it isn't roped off, chances are quite good there's a clear path and safe exit. (I know you're using that example to discuss side country etc).

My approach is, when in doubt, try not to lose any more elevation. Go side ways and be mindful how "easy" or hard it will be to reverse course in case that end up being necessary. In this particular case, I'd probably turn back when he first stopped.

 

[no edge]

My ski budy got cliffed out at Snowbird. Ski Patrol came and my buddy yelled "go ahead, pull me up" Patrolman told him, you are going down. It was a huge distance, Quite an experience.

On an earlier trip to Snowbird I didn't get cliffed out. I fell right off and down the face of the rock. It had lots of jagged rocks. Oh man that hurt. Couldn't ski the next day.

 

[SSSdave]

During summers, being cliffed out is also a problem rambling about crosscountry hiking in mountains. Especially in glaciated canyons that tend to form convex U shaped canyons that have modest gradients up high then gradually steepen below where persons cannot see below slope knees. Reviewing topographic maps can eliminate descending slopes that are likely to have cliffs but that does still not guaranty a 20 foot cliff may appear without any map sign between 40 foot vertical line map granularity.

 

[noncrazycanuck]

the further away you are from terrain your scoping out the easier it looks.

 

[gilligan]

the further away you are from terrain your scoping out the easier it looks.

Truth. It can also sometimes be tricky to find that sweet line you scoped out from below when you're trying to find it again from above.

 

[crgildart]

I just ask this guy if I'm not sure...

 

[chilehed]

I'll share later to avoid biasing the responses.

My first response was at 10 seconds, and consisted of "only if you're a total idiot".

My second response (at 1:43) was "damn, you're even stupider than I thought".

 

[Tricia]

Consult the ski patrol before you go. The open areas are checked and swept every day. Patrol will be aware of the conditions in the area you intend to ski and they may give you suggested routes that may have better conditions and be safer. Conditions change daily and sometimes hourly depending on the weather. Patrol may even offer to show you a route if they are not too busy.

As noted in earlier posts, these guys ducked a rope, which means they were not using data from Patrol.

Mad props to patrollers!