Cold/Numb Toes Problem

[laine]

Ok, Pugski hivemind - looking for some kind of "diagnosis" here. Here's my situation:

With all of the boots I have had in the last 15+ years, I have had the same problem. Cold toes. I ignored it and just thought it was somewhat normal. About 3 years ago I got some Hotronics, and it kinda helped, but it also made me realize it was more than cold toes. My toes would go numb. And then get cold. So the heaters warmed them, but I couldn't put them too high, because it would feel like my toes were burning when the bloodflow/feeling came back to them.

I recently bit the bullet and picked up some Lenz socks - with the heated toebox. Tried them yesterday. Same thing. When we went in for lunch, and the bloodflow/feeling came back, it was pretty painful. I actually had to take my boots off at lunch to massage my toes. I went back out after lunch, but turned the heat on the socks off.

My boots are comfortable and fit well and this has been consistent with all the boots I've owned for the last 15+ years - I think I've started to notice it more since I got heaters. I buy my boots from professional bootfitters and have custom insoles.

What I paid attention to when I changed out of my ski boots is how cold my toes felt - but the arch in my foot and everything behind that felt normal temperature, almost warm. I don't feel any specific pressure points, but maybe a nerve or blood vessel is being compressed? I actually went to a podiatrist in Truckee (I live in the Bay Area, but wanted to see someone who skis), but he didn't really have any answers. I can try another podiatrist near me.

How do I figure this out? Anyone have any ideas?

 

[Tom K.]

No expert, but two ideas that you've probably already addressed:

Heat molded liners to equalize pressure around the foot, and eliminate pressure points that could be restricting blood flow?

Thicker long johns for the "warm legs, warm feet" theory?

 

[laine]

No expert, but two ideas that you've probably already addressed:

Heat molded liners to equalize pressure around the foot, and eliminate pressure points that could be restricting blood flow?

Have had liners heat-molded in the past. Not on the current boots since they fit without any hotspots. And that's the issue. I don't feel any hotspots or pressure points.

Thicker long johns for the "warm legs, warm feet" theory?

My feet aren't cold - it's just my toes. I literally made my husband feel the temperature difference between the arch in my foot and my toes. The arch felt normal/warm and the toes were quite cold. (My legs are not cold either.)

 

[Chef23]

Anybody try Intuition liners as a way to help? I haven’t been thrilled with my heated socks. I have heard the neoprene boot covers help also.

 

[laine]

Anybody try Intuition liners as a way to help? I haven’t been thrilled with my heated socks. I have heard the neoprene boot covers help also.

My previous boots had Intuition liners - had cold toes in them too.

Because the instep of my foot is warm, that's why I think it's some kind of nerve or blood vessel thing - but in all honesty, I don't know enough about foot anatomy.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I went through that with my current boots. It got to the stage that on cold days I had no feeling for about 1/2 hour after taking the boot off.

How it started: I’m in Lange WC130 snug fit with a touch of play (my opinion), with footbed.

Cause: Touch of play, maybe a little packed out. So one if members (from Epic) had Lange liners that had a bit more padding and bought them. Nice liner, direct fit into the boot, tightened everything up and once the line pack out should be perfect. definitely got enough days to pack them out. Funny thing no numbness or cold worn in the house not skiing. I suffered for about 15-20 days skiing. Final straw was on a above freezing day and feet still got cold with no feeling to the of the day.

Problem: Too tight, they didn’t pack out enough so the numbness and cold got worse.

Solution: Put old liners back in, problems solved.

Conclusion: While we strive for the ultimate fit, there is a point that some may need a touch of play/movement to allow circulation to ensure blood flow. By skiing with both liners, same shell it confirms that an overly snug (and I mean marginally as I can measure very little difference) is enough to cause these issues.

I self inflicted this to achieve the best performance and ended up being in a position that could have caused long term health issues that could have ended skiing all together.

So IMHO if anyone has coldness and numbness in boots, there is a good chance the boot may be too snug. Quick cheap test, rent a set of looser boots and see what happens if float around but are warm and have no numbness its your boot being too tight, see a good fitter and see what they can do. I can’t tell you as the where the slight additional snugness caused the issue in my case let alone yours, but only that a good fitter should be able too.

Final note, did my little perceived slop effect my skiing, no! Did the liner that caused the issue effect the skiing, yes, hard to ski well when you lose feeling in the feet.

 

[François Pugh]

Hypothesis: boot buckle location in key place to block artery or vein serving toes.
Get checked for diabetes. As my diabetes got worse (to the point where i actually went to a Doc and got diagnosed), I became more sensitive to cold and as that happened my frozen feet/toes got worse. I need to wear at 0 C (32F) degrees what was needed when it was o F (-18 C). Now getting 2nd set of batteries so they will last all day on high.

Burning sensation when feet thaw out after they freeze is normal. Numb feet when frozen happens too. Permanent numbness is NOT.

 

[Bruuuce]

Hypothesis: boot buckle location in key place to block artery or vein serving toes.

This is what I am thinking. Even if you don't feel a pressure point, blood flow is likely being restricted somewhere. I had this issue and tested skiing with the buckles fully loose. It showed me that there was an issue with a buckle and I played around with them until I found a combination that worked. I'd say go back to the best boot fitter you know and see what he/she can find.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...With all of the boots I have had in the last 15+ years, I have had the same problem. Cold toes. I ignored it and just thought it was somewhat normal. About 3 years ago I got some Hotronics, and it kinda helped, but it also made me realize it was more than cold toes. My toes would go numb. And then get cold. So the heaters warmed them, but I couldn't put them too high, because it would feel like my toes were burning when the bloodflow/feeling came back to them....

...Burning sensation when feet thaw out after they freeze is normal. Numb feet when frozen happens too. Permanent numbness is NOT.

Cold toes is usual in ski boots for many people. Allowing them to stay cold because you think this is part of skiing is not normal. You should find a way to keep those toes warm so they don't go numb. Are you currently using the Hotronics in your boots? Do you allow the toes to go cold, then turn the Hotronics on after they are cold? It sorta sounds like that in your OP. If so, turn the hotronics on before you go out to ski and keep them on to keep your toes from ever going cold.

If your toes go numb from cold then burn or sting when they warm up, the most likely cause is frost-nip. Look it up. You do not want to allow frost-nip to happen repeatedly to your toes. They will definitely sting as they return to normal temperature after frost-nip. Frost nip is not good for you, and if happening repeatedly it will put you in danger of frost bite. You don't want to get anywhere near that with your toes. If you are no longer using the Hotronics, or if you allow your toes to go cold before turning the Hotronics on, this might be the case.

If this is the case, I'd suggest first use those Hotronics and turn them on before going out, use toe-warmer packs on top of your socks, use Boot Gloves, use heated socks, and/or use some combination of any of those. Stick duct tape on top of your boots over the area where the flaps close over each other near the toes. This can stop cold air from coming into the boots through the gap. Use whatever combination of these things that works to keep the toes from getting cold enough to go numb.

There are some things other than the cold air outside the boots that can cause your toes to get cold or numb. Look up Morton's Neuroma. This is a pinched nerve in the inside of the foot. When the nerve gets pinched, you will experience stinging, numbness, and a feeling of burning your toes. Morton's Neuroma can often be fixed with a custom footbed inside the boot, shaped just right by a bootfitter to address the neuroma. If it's left untreated too long the nerve can get very inflamed and at that point it may need invasive action to fix the issue. Re-reading your OP makes me think this may be part of your problem.

Do what you need to do to keep the toes from getting cold in the first place, and then if the problem continues consider whether you might have a neuroma. If the toes stay warm to the touch but go numb, sting, or feel like they are burning, see a bootfitter to get the neuroma addressed. You'll need a well educated and seasoned bootfitter who knows what's what with bootfitting, not a shop attendant who sells boots. People here can recommend such bootfitters if you ask.

Tight pressure on the foot can close up blood flow to the toes by pressing on arteries that send blood to the toes. When that happens the toes will go cold. Where those arteries are I'm not sure. Others here will probably talk about this.

And then there's diabetes, mentioned by @François Pugh. I recommend doing the things that will keep your toes warm first, then start considering these other things if that doesn't fix your problem.

 

[trailtrimmer]

How much pressure is on your arch? Can you run the lower boot buckles a little looser?

Also, Boot Gloves help a ton, but you likely have a circulation issue.

 

[Philpug]

A good amount of our plumbing (blood flow) goes over the top of foot, there might be enough pressure to stop blood flow without it being uncomfortable.

 

[Uncle-A]

You said that you have no hot spots on your feet but the lack of blood flow to your foot may say different. When you remove your boots also remove your socks and check your foot very closely, the small amount of pressure it takes to stop blood flow may not be obvious so look closely. One give away maybe just a sock impression on the skin especially across the top of your instep. Some people can see blood vessels across the top of their foot others have deeper locations and they can not see them. Not sure but those that are deeper in location have warmer feet, if they are closer to the surface they have cold feet but that is only my therory.

 

[DanoT]

I get cold toes and I suspect that my high instep is the culprit as I think that blood vessels to the toes run across the top of the instep. I am also borderline/on the cusp Type II diabetic (no medication required)

My solution has been Sidas heated footbeds with their PRO battery.

I start out with the power turned off and usually start to get cold toes on my right foot after a run or two, so I turn the power on low and then the left foot power goes on low a run or two later. I never use med. or high settings. Sometimes the older battery on my left boot doesn't last all day but will still generate enough heat before it dies that I only discover the dead battery at the end of the day.

I turn the batteries off when I go indoors for a break.

From the Hestra Glove product rep: The correct heat setting is one in which the fingers feel neither cold nor hot. I suspect the same applies to heated socks and footbeds.

 

[oldschoolskier]

A good amount of our plumbing (blood flow) goes over the top of foot, there might be enough pressure to stop blood flow without it being uncomfortable.

I’m agree with @Philpug on this, while I personally have only used a fitter once for boots and that combined with years of experience gave me enough to fit myself (and family) to certain limits. However I do strongly recommend them, good ones even if they cost you are worth their weight in gold.

The reason I shared my experience is that we can easily get mislead with the ever must be snug fit to ensure best performance (this includes fitters). Cold and numbness is not good, you lose feeling and thereby performance.

@François Pugh thanks for the recommendation, ran through my head at the time and did get checked. Wasn’t the issue, just a tight spot causing the problem, don't know where.

Remember we (most on the group) are exceptional skier but we are not racers looking for that 1/1000 of a second where momentary suffering is required, we are there to ski the day(s) and the balance between comfort, performance and health must be equal, otherwise we lose all three.

 

[Uncle-A]

Is this another opportunity for the return of the rear entry boot, better blood flow to the toes?

 

[trailtrimmer]

Do your toes turn white at all? Phil's and Uncle A's responses are why I was asking about running the lower boot loose for testing. If you have white toes, you may have raynaud's which is hard to deal with.

A. Make sure your mid-foot isn't pinched at all.
B. Fire up the heaters on low before going out, ramp up as needed
C. Add a leg layer or consider a thin vest or something more on your core. Some circulation disorders require keeping the core and entire body a little warmer to alleviate.

 

[coskigirl]

I agree with the idea of a restriction on the top of the foot. It would be interesting to ski a day without buckling at least the buckle that is closest to the instep and see if that is any different.

 

[Andy Mink]

I notice when my toes get cold I can go in to the lodge, take the boots off, warm up, and put them back on and my feet feel much better. Another thing that helps is not wearing the socks you're going to ski in to the hill. I started changing when I get there and it seems to help a bit. I also started to only plug my heated bag in for the trip up. No more over night or several hours of heating. This allows the shell to be pliable for easy on but doesn't heat the liner to the point where I sweat then get colder.

 

[PNWRod]

I have raynaud's syndrome which normally affects the hands but can also affect the toes. I don't experience it skiing but on cooler days out puttering around the yard or during/after surfing in fairly warm water. I'm so used to it I don't think much about it except that I can't feel my fingers for a bit.

 

[laine]

Thanks everyone - here's some follow-up details that might be useful:

• I never wear my ski socks to the mtn. I always put them on just before booting up - I primarily ski in women's SmartWool Ultralight socks
• My current boots were fit by a professional (Olympic Bootworks at Squaw) and I have custom footbeds. This happened with my previous two pair of boots as well - both Dalbello, also professionally fit, one at Tahoe Sports Hub and one at California Ski Company
• I have a heated Kulkea boot bag, so my boots are warm when I put them on
• With the heaters (both the Hotronics and the Lenz socks - which I used for the first time this weekend) - I always put them on low before leaving the lodge. I am not waiting until my toes are cold before using them
• Again, my feet overall are not cold - it's only my toes that go numb/cold
• I do not have issues with cold fingers/hands - and the rest of me is not particularly cold (I manage with layering)
• I got bloodwork done last March and have no inclination towards diabetes. My glucose is in the middle of the range

The hypotheses above that sound most intriguing are - in order of what I think might be the problem:

• Some kind of blood flow restriction / pressure on the top of my instep, which I did get initially in the boots and went back for an adjustment - but maybe it's not fixed?
• Morton's Neuroma
• Raynaud's Syndrome - but less so on this one

For some kind of blood flow issue - I can try skiing with my lower buckles completely open and see if that makes a difference. But without feeling any specific pressure points, how else would I confirm or address this?

For Morton's and Raynaud's (though given I don't have cold hand issues, I doubt it's this) - how are those diagnosed? Podiatrist? Do bootfitters know how to customize a footbed for something like that, if it turns out that is the issue?

Thanks all!