Disqualifications DQ in kids racing

[tube77]

I have never seen a gate judge at any of these events. I had access to a recent USSA race volunteer sign up sheet and there was no position for gate judges (and they listed everything, even positions that the same person has done for years).

No. It can’t be the case. Without gate judges and chief judge, race can’t start

 

[tube77]

This may have to do with new rules.
SafeSport and USSS requires that anyone “inside the fences” at an event where minors are participating (I.e. all of our events) to have:
-A USSS membership in good standing
-Taken the SafeSport course, administered by a third party affiliated with USSS, and (in my case) cleared a background check (by another third party). SafeSport is required byFederal Law.

This may be why clubs are not casting about for gatekeepers, they may know that parent volunteers are not going to be compliant.

A side effect of “keeping kids safe” from predators has the unintended effect of reducing the number of course slippers, course maintenance volunteers, and gate judges on the hill. The rules/law even prevents college aged or masters racers from forerunning a USSS race (Unless they are compliant with the rules).
At a 45 gate slalom I attended last weekend there were zero gate judges. The start ref and finish ref would have to judge the entire course, and the ref and TD would hopefully have eyes on every racer as well.

Well.. we had at least more than 5 gate judges in u12 GS racing last weekend in east coast..
I don’t know if they were all qualified by the new regulations
It doesn’t seem to be like that though..

 

[Phishnerd]

The program I work for is actively investigating the possibility of an automated camera system for our competition hill. The intent is primarily to let off-site families and friends watch competition, I believe, but I'm very curious to see how it works out. In a best-case scenario, it could replace having a coach on the hill with a camera and provide for the possibility of actual video control with gate judges in a warm building as you described. I'm not optimistic it will work out that way from a reliability or coverage standpoint, but I'd love to be wrong.

I swear I ran across something while I was looking around that indicated the future could have gate judging monitored by camera -- but I can't find it now.

 

[Smear]

Have been a gate judge on U8-U12 races in Norway with ~150 participants. It's hard work and not that easy. Lots of gaps in the start list and a kid coming every 30 seconds or so and you stand there for hours. You have to be damned sure that you get the correct kid before making a note, not easy in foul weather to see the number on a folded up vest.

For U8-U10 in our country the results are not sorted and there is no announcement of winners or top 3. It's kids sports, mass participations events and more like a timed training with equal prices for everyone. Result lists only supposed to exist as printouts in the finish area, and not be published online. But they often exist on the timing apps. If someone that misses a gate is not DQ and there is a time on the list instead of a DQ, then so what? They know. For my gates the only faults where kids not understanding the delay gates and going an extra long way, and 2-3 totally clueless kids straigthlining sections of the course, but they were going slower than the fast kids anyway... I didn't even check if the jury DQ kids from my notes, don't really care....

For U12 and above it is serious business. So being gate judge for U8-U10 is good practice for being a gate judge for U12 and above...

Walking back up is generally prohibited in kids racing. Tight start intervals, big differences in speed for different kids, can make a mess in the timing system in events that are already taking way to long or can be a problem for safety.

Not knowing how things are in the US but I guess the parents the op are referring to is just under the same attitude that U8-U10 racing is not that serious stuff.

Coaches actively encouraging kids to miss gates to get a better time? Well like @jt10000. Nice story. Not. Buying. It.

 

[sparty]

- If gate judges are not there, how is it possible to confirm clean passage?

From the USSS Comp Guide, p.123:

U669.3
The Jury along with the support of the Organizing Committee may opt to not use Gate Judges for DH, DH Training, SG, SG Training, and GS, provided they take measures to cover the entire course with sufficient Jury members, Jury advisors, eyes of the Jury, and connection coaches

I haven't seen a dedicated gate judge at a GS or SG in a long time. Usually the jury has eyes on most of the hill and the start and finish ref can see the rest. It's also unusual to have subtle straddle with panels.

I can't speak to IMD specifically. Northern Division definitely did DQ younger athletes when I was there.

 

[Phishnerd]

Perhaps there should be a separate "talk about racing rules" thread -- enjoying the sublayer discussion.

 

[Phishnerd]

If someone that misses a gate is not DQ and there is a time on the list instead of a DQ, then so what? They know. For my gates the only faults where kids not understanding the delay gates and going an extra long way, and 2-3 totally clueless kids straigthlining sections of the course, but they were going slower than the fast kids anyway... I didn't even check if the jury DQ kids from my notes, don't really care....

Are you essentially saying -- mark anyone who misses a gate, as DSQ, but give them a time in the overall result? Because I like that as an idea. Feels very appropriate for any u10.

It's also feels more coachable. "great run, we'll work on the delay" feels good

 

[S.H.]

Well.. we had at least more than 5 gate judges in u12 GS racing last weekend in east coast..
I don’t know if they were all qualified by the new regulations
It doesn’t seem to be like that though..

At the club I used to coach at, every family had to have at least one adult get a USSS volunteer membership with the background check/safesport requirements so they could help in the venue at races.

Restricting who gets into the venue is definitely a point of emphasis the last few years.

 

[Wilhelmson]

I thought this started out about giving little kids some leaway. Now its no judges certified judges? In a lot of sports, teenagers are the referees for young kids. They are not perfect.
What I learned as a parent is those little kid games seem like a big deal at the time but mean little. If the kids are really good then they are already on a different track. Some might still participate in town stuff.

 

[Chrome]

I thought this started out about giving little kids some leaway. Now its no judges certified judges? In a lot of sports, teenagers are the referees for young kids. They are not perfect.
What I learned as a parent is those little kid games seem like a big deal at the time but mean little. If the kids are really good then they are already on a different track. Some might still participate in town stuff.

I think anyone associated with a team racing should be able to be a gate judge. Parent/older kids/grandmas. They wont get it perfect.

A lot of people are claiming expertise on this thread and are giving very different answers to how things work. The most credible answer I've seen is that USSS is not permitting people to do fairly basic jobs without jumping through hoops. If true, that is ridiculous.

 

[Smear]

Not even in the same contintent and you are a know it all about my local racing. Gotta love people's confidence about topics they know nothing about it.

Can smell bullshit from way across the Atlantic ;-) And just providing a different perspective on how serious kids sports should be.

Are you essentially saying -- mark anyone who misses a gate, as DSQ, but give them a time in the overall result? Because I like that as an idea. Feels very appropriate for any u10.

It's also feels more coachable. "great run, we'll work on the delay" feels good

That's not how it currently works, it's either DSQ or time not both. But would work for me for U8-U10.

 

[Chrome]

From the USSS Comp Guide, p.123:

I haven't seen a dedicated gate judge at a GS or SG in a long time. Usually the jury has eyes on most of the hill and the start and finish ref can see the rest. It's also unusual to have subtle straddle with panels.

I can't speak to IMD specifically. Northern Division definitely did DQ younger athletes when I was there.

So for a GS race it would not be unusual, based on your experience and the rules, to have no gate judges at an event?

 

[Phishnerd]

That's not how it currently works, it's either DSQ or time not both. But would work for me for U8-U10.

Right. I'm suggesting it's a good idea to show both in the youngest ages

 

[Phishnerd]

So for a GS race it would not be unusual, based on your experience and the rules, to have no gate judges at an event?

No because the race staff is doing it. They're not wearing gate judge bibs, but they have cards tho

This was in an earlier point. The start ref, finish ref, TD, and Ref can cover an entire GS course and provide complete coverage for the race

 

[Chrome]

Can smell bullshit from way across the Atlantic ;-) And just providing a different perspective on how serious kids sports should be.

That's not how it currently works, it's either DSQ or time not both. But would work for me for U8-U10.

The coach in question is from your part of the world. You seem to share the same views. Any non cheater takes accusations of cheating seriously.

 

[S.H.]

So for a GS race it would not be unusual, based on your experience and the rules, to have no gate judges at an event?

no, gate judges are no longer required for GS/SG/DH. It's been a while since I've seen any. The jury generally relies on their own eyes, the start/finish ref, and connection coaches (i.e., eyes of the jury) for these disciplines.

 

[Phishnerd]

The coach in question is from your part of the world. You seem to share the same views. Any non cheater takes accusations of cheating seriously.

He explained exactly where he was from and acknowledged it may be different. Provided perspective to the conversation. Not sure why you're getting aggro on knowledgable individuals trying to help your information?

I'm beginning to wonder if Salt Lake is in a different country with a different set of rules.

 

[Chrome]

He explained exactly where he was from and acknowledged it may be different. Provided perspective to the conversation. Not sure why you're getting aggro on knowledgable individuals trying to help your information?

I'm beginning to wonder if Salt Lake is in a different country with a different set of rules.

Yes calling me a liar is constructive...

 

[Chrome]

This has been a pointless exercise. There is zero input from anyone in Intermountain. USSS does not in fact care, or bother to reply, to any of these concerns. Everyone is a know-it-all but is saying completely different things.

If the racing community wanted to lower my opinion of it further than it already is: congratulations, done!

I will point out to everyone in real life going forward how absurdly fake the race results are. There have been enough personal attacks to convince me this is an issue everywhere. Not a single person has asked for the video proof which I have repeatedly said that I have. That means you all know this is real and don't want to see it.

I feel bad for the kids getting their joy of skiing killed by know little coaches.

 

[dbostedo]

Not a single person has asked for the video proof which I have repeatedly said that I have.

I would have asked for it first thing in the thread, but posting those videos publicly, as you yourself said, is not a good idea. (It is, IMO as well as yours, "icky".) I suspect a lot of others feel the same way. I don't think posting those is a way to deal with this problem in this thread.

There's no reason for officials or coaches to not see them though in your region - have you shown the videos to them? If not, why not?

There have been enough personal attacks

If you believe so, you should report those posts. Moderators (other than me) will look and clean things up and send messages if necessary.