Don’t Fear the Plug

[DocGKR]

I typically wear size 10.5/44 shoes. As mentioned in another thread a while back, I have an extremely wide forefoot (quad E / 116mm across at widest point) with a high arch and relatively narrow heel. Unfortunately, I have had a bone graft to my right calcaneus, as well as arthroscopic surgery on my left ankle--resulting in some post-surgical paresthesia and vascular changes (almost like a mild Raynaud’s). My left foot is also a half size length smaller than my right. Without a doubt, it is hard to fit my feet into performance boots.

Since the dawn of the new Millenium, I have been using 98mm last/27.5 boots, typically in a 110-120 flex for recreational All-Mountain skiing.

After dipping my toes back into Masters racing a couple of years ago, I found myself needing a much more capable and effective boot to control modern Masters level racing skis. Reed, a superb boot-guru at Start Haus in Truckee, suggested a 98mm last/27.5 Nordica Doberman GP 140, as he felt it was the best option for my feet and current skiing level. After nearly 4 hours of fitting, cuff alignment, and canting, Reed was proven correct and I’ve skied those GP140’s the past two seasons.

Recently, Reed suggested I might want to now consider the 93mm last Nordica Doberman WC 150. So this Fall, I bit the bullet, despite some skepticism over the concept, and got the WC 150 “plug” (yes—an inaccurate colloquial term, but one that gets the point across) in a 27 shell. Reed spent over 5 hours carefully adapting and fitting the boots around my crazy wide, high arch feet. He also needed to trim a pair of my custom foot beds to fit the new boot.

The result is the most comfortable, responsive ski boot I have ever used, bar none. Just amazing for both racing in gates and free skiing all day on resort runs.

 

[fatbob]

93mm ( I know reference sizes so possibly a bit wider in a 27) to 116mm sounds like more grinding and stretching than most bootfitters would want to do. Does this fall into the realm of it is possible rather than it is practical?

5 hours work sounds more than is practical in a thriving business unless he's billing you on the clock.

 

[anders_nor]

5 hours on the clock is a nobrainer for a wellfitting boot like that imho

 

[Swede]

I typically wear size 10.5/44 shoes. As mentioned in another thread a while back, I have an extremely wide forefoot (quad E / 116mm across at widest point) with a high arch and relatively narrow heel. Unfortunately, I have had a bone graft to my right calcaneus, as well as arthroscopic surgery on my left ankle--resulting in some post-surgical paresthesia and vascular changes (almost like a mild Raynaud’s). My left foot is also a half size length smaller than my right. Without a doubt, it is hard to fit my feet into performance boots.

Since the dawn of the new Millenium, I have been using 98mm last/27.5 boots, typically in a 110-120 flex for recreational All-Mountain skiing.

After dipping my toes back into Masters racing a couple of years ago, I found myself needing a much more capable and effective boot to control modern Masters level racing skis. Reed, a superb boot-guru at Start Haus in Truckee, suggested a 98mm last/27.5 Nordica Doberman GP 140, as he felt it was the best option for my feet and current skiing level. After nearly 4 hours of fitting, cuff alignment, and canting, Reed was proven correct and I’ve skied those GP140’s the past two seasons.

Recently, Reed suggested I might want to now consider the 93mm last Nordica Doberman WC 150. So this Fall, I bit the bullet, despite some skepticism over the concept, and got the WC 150 “plug” (yes—an inaccurate colloquial term, but one that gets the point across) in a 27 shell. Reed spent over 5 hours carefully adapting and fitting the boots around my crazy wide, high arch feet. He also needed to trim a pair of my custom foot beds to fit the new boot.

The result is the most comfortable, responsive ski boot I have ever used, bar none. Just amazing for both racing in gates and free skiing all day on resort runs.

Do they [Nordica] really make shells in 'whole' sizes? Most boots I am familiar with only make shells in half-sizes and a 27 and 27.5 is the same size shell.

 

[Dwight]

Do they [Nordica] really make shells in 'whole' sizes? Most boots I am familiar with only make shells in half-sizes and a 27 and 27.5 is the same size shell.

They sure market them at each half size.

 

[Swede]

They sure market them at each half size.

Yes most manufacturers do, but many fitters/shops won't even stock the "full" sizes. But there might be some brands that actually do whole sizes and that would be interesting to know.

 

[Nobody]

I am pretty sure that Nordica, Tecnica (and Dalbello as well) do have one size shell only for the full size and for the half size up (e.g. 27 and 27.5 shells are the same BSL), the difference being made by the liner and the footbeds. I read that some other producer does the full size adn the half size down (e.g. 27.0 and 26.5), but I can be wrong (on both accounts).

As for going with the "plug". I am on my second pair of plug boots, a Dalbello DRS WC SS in 26.5/93mm. Got the boot fitter a bit of work, but it is now ok (bit of a pain now in the 6th toe area, but what do I expect after nearly 18 months of non use). For everyday skiing I - usually- use a non plug Dalbello DRS 110 , same size (26.5) but last 98mm, did not need any work, except I transfer the custom footbed from one boot to the other. Back up everyday boot is a Tecnica 9.8 110...in 27.5, which was ok at the beginning but now is starting to be a thad too soft and wide (much more used and older thant the two DBs)

 

[Swede]

^ Yes I have heard about the thicker liner/soles for the full sizes, but that won't make a difference for very long, I suspect. But if someone actually make shells in whole sizes as well, that would be good to know. I havemostly experience from Lange/Rossi and Salomon/Atomic and briefly from Head and Fischer (race boots mainly) and they come in half sizes.

 

[fatbob]

I guess someone might make shells in both half and full sizes but given the cost implications and the ability of skilled people to work with an existing clog - I can't see any economic sense. If you are talking about having a preference for say a shell stamped 27 rather than 27.5 then you probably have greater variance between brands than you do in that jump.

 

[Prosper]

The result is the most comfortable, responsive ski boot I have ever used, bar none. Just amazing for both racing in gates and free skiing all day on resort runs.

I'm at about 12 hours of boot fitting work with my Head Raptor WCR4 and will probably need an additional couple hours of fine tuning to get the boots completely dialed in. I'm looking forward to the day I can make the same statement.

 

[tube77]

I typically wear size 10.5/44 shoes. As mentioned in another thread a while back, I have an extremely wide forefoot (quad E / 116mm across at widest point) with a high arch and relatively narrow heel. Unfortunately, I have had a bone graft to my right calcaneus, as well as arthroscopic surgery on my left ankle--resulting in some post-surgical paresthesia and vascular changes (almost like a mild Raynaud’s). My left foot is also a half size length smaller than my right. Without a doubt, it is hard to fit my feet into performance boots.

Since the dawn of the new Millenium, I have been using 98mm last/27.5 boots, typically in a 110-120 flex for recreational All-Mountain skiing.

After dipping my toes back into Masters racing a couple of years ago, I found myself needing a much more capable and effective boot to control modern Masters level racing skis. Reed, a superb boot-guru at Start Haus in Truckee, suggested a 98mm last/27.5 Nordica Doberman GP 140, as he felt it was the best option for my feet and current skiing level. After nearly 4 hours of fitting, cuff alignment, and canting, Reed was proven correct and I’ve skied those GP140’s the past two seasons.

Recently, Reed suggested I might want to now consider the 93mm last Nordica Doberman WC 150. So this Fall, I bit the bullet, despite some skepticism over the concept, and got the WC 150 “plug” (yes—an inaccurate colloquial term, but one that gets the point across) in a 27 shell. Reed spent over 5 hours carefully adapting and fitting the boots around my crazy wide, high arch feet. He also needed to trim a pair of my custom foot beds to fit the new boot.

The result is the most comfortable, responsive ski boot I have ever used, bar none. Just amazing for both racing in gates and free skiing all day on resort runs.

I don't fear the plug but fear the cost for the 4~5hrs of boot fitting from the respected fitter..
Wouldn't it cost more than the boots?

 

[Atomicman]

^ Yes I have heard about the thicker liner/soles for the full sizes, but that won't make a difference for very long, I suspect. But if someone actually make shells in whole sizes as well, that would be good to know. I havemostly experience from Lange/Rossi and Salomon/Atomic and briefly from Head and Fischer (race boots mainly) and they come in half sizes.

I don't think this is correct. They don't come in 1/2 size shells. It is simply a stock foot bed that is slightly thicker in the smaller size, liners are the same I just looked on the Atomic site FIS Race boots. Proved what I am saying to be true.

I ski in a Head plugs and for sure are not shells in 1/2 sizes.


The beauty of true plugs is the ability to grind to fit. My shells are never stretched with a plug, plenty of material to grind to fit exactly where needed. I skied in the older red Head Raptor RD150 for many years and have been in the Head RD B3 for the last few years with foamed WC lace up liners in both! I also use NON-posted conformable foot beds in both! This combo is ultra comfortable! My boot guys has been doing my boots for so long, one trip to him and they were perfect. By the way I couldn't even get my foot in the shell with no sock before the work was done!

REDSTER WORLD CUP​

EURO	UK	US	MONDO	SOLE LENGTH	LAST WIDTH
33 - 34	1 - 2	2 - 3	21 - 21,5	261	82
34,5 - 35	2,5 - 3	3,5 - 4	22 - 22,5	265	84
36 - 37	3,5 - 4	4,5 - 5	23 - 23,5	275	86
37,5 - 38	5 - 5,5	6 - 6,5	24 - 24,5	285	88
39 - 40	6 - 6,5	7 - 7,5	25 - 25,5	295	90
40,5 - 41	7 - 7,5	8 - 8,5	26 - 26,5	305	92
42 - 43	8 - 9	9 - 10	27 - 27,5	315	94
43,5 - 44	9,5 - 10	10,5 - 11	28 - 28,5	325	96
45 - 46	10,5 - 11	11,5 - 12	29 - 29,5	335	98

REDSTER CLUB SPORT​

EURO	UK	US	MONDO	SOLE LENGTH	LAST WIDTH
33 - 34	1 - 2	2 - 3	21 - 21,5	261	86
34,5 - 35	2,5 - 3	3,5 - 4	22 - 22,5	265	88
36 - 37	3,5 - 4	4,5 - 5	23 - 23,5	275	90
37,5 - 38	5 - 5,5	6 - 6,5	24 - 24,5	285	92
39 - 40	6 - 6,5	7 - 7,5	25 - 25,5	295	94
40,5 - 41	7 - 7,5	8 - 8,5	26 - 26,5	305	96
42 - 43	8 - 9	9 - 10	27 - 27,5	315	98
43,5 - 44	9,5 - 10	10,5 - 11	28 - 28,5	325	100
45 - 46	10,5 - 11	11,5 - 12	29 - 29,5	335	102

 

[James]

They don’t come in half sizes. Maybe they made a special mold for Hirscher, no idea. (Well he did ski at least for a time in a red plastic Dobie) Short of that level, no.

I don't fear the plug but fear the cost for the 4~5hrs of boot fitting from the respected fitter..
Wouldn't it cost more than the boots?

No, it’s included.
Now if you get it somewhere else, then bring it that’s different. It is something to consider when buying an older plug from say SkiYard for $250.

The HeadB3’s are heavy as hell. You notice when carrying them to the area or in the airport/travel.
The Lange Zc’s were thick as hell, probably even heavier. Maybe I’ll weigh them to compare. That came with a very thin flat piece to take up the half size. Maybe 3/32 in. I think the cuff is 26, or else that was an older one I’m thinking of. So they don’t even make a cuff for each shell size.

Anyone interested in a Lange 27/27.5 shell zc let me know, probably going to let it go.

 

[Swede]

I don't think this is correct. They don't come in 1/2 size shells. It is simply a stock foot bed that is slightly thicker in the smaller size, liners are the same I just looked on the Atomic site FIS Race boots. Proved what I am saying to be true.

I ski in a Head plugs and for sure are not shells in 1/2 sizes.


The beauty of true plugs is the ability to grind to fit. My shells are never stretched with a plug, plenty of material to grind to fit exactly where needed. I skied in the older red Head Raptor RD150 for many years and have been in the Head RD B3 for the last few years with foamed WC lace up liners in both! I also use NON-posted conformable foot beds in both! This combo is ultra comfortable! My boot guys has been doing my boots for so long, one trip to him and they were perfect. By the way I couldn't even get my foot in the shell with no sock before the work was done!

REDSTER WORLD CUP​

EURO	UK	US	MONDO	SOLE LENGTH	LAST WIDTH
33 - 34	1 - 2	2 - 3	21 - 21,5	261	82
34,5 - 35	2,5 - 3	3,5 - 4	22 - 22,5	265	84
36 - 37	3,5 - 4	4,5 - 5	23 - 23,5	275	86
37,5 - 38	5 - 5,5	6 - 6,5	24 - 24,5	285	88
39 - 40	6 - 6,5	7 - 7,5	25 - 25,5	295	90
40,5 - 41	7 - 7,5	8 - 8,5	26 - 26,5	305	92
42 - 43	8 - 9	9 - 10	27 - 27,5	315	94
43,5 - 44	9,5 - 10	10,5 - 11	28 - 28,5	325	96
45 - 46	10,5 - 11	11,5 - 12	29 - 29,5	335	98

REDSTER CLUB SPORT​

EURO	UK	US	MONDO	SOLE LENGTH	LAST WIDTH
33 - 34	1 - 2	2 - 3	21 - 21,5	261	86
34,5 - 35	2,5 - 3	3,5 - 4	22 - 22,5	265	88
36 - 37	3,5 - 4	4,5 - 5	23 - 23,5	275	90
37,5 - 38	5 - 5,5	6 - 6,5	24 - 24,5	285	92
39 - 40	6 - 6,5	7 - 7,5	25 - 25,5	295	94
40,5 - 41	7 - 7,5	8 - 8,5	26 - 26,5	305	96
42 - 43	8 - 9	9 - 10	27 - 27,5	315	98
43,5 - 44	9,5 - 10	10,5 - 11	28 - 28,5	325	100
45 - 46	10,5 - 11	11,5 - 12	29 - 29,5	335	102

They come in 1 cm intervals, that’s the point. A 27 is the same shell size as a 27.5. So I would argue that the 27.5, the ”half-size”, is the true size as the 27 would be the same shell size with a thicker sole and when skied a short period it will become a 27.5. Hence they come in ”half-sizes”. 0.5 is half a centimeter.
Metric confusion

 

[Philpug]

I've seen alot of big footed skiers pour thier foot into a plug, the same way a mouse can squeeze in a 1/4" gap under a cabinet, bone structure. A lot depends what the foot can do.

 

[Atomicman]

They come in 1 cm intervals, that’s the point. A 27 is the same shell size as a 27.5. So I would argue that the 27.5, the ”half-size”, is the true size as the 27 would be the same shell size with a thicker sole and when skied a short period it will become a 27.5.
Metric confusion

Exactly, so they don't come in true 1/2 sizes!

 

[Swede]

Exactly, so they don't come in true 1/2 sizes!

Well they do come in true half sizes, as the ’true’ shell sizes are 23.5, 24.5, 25.5 etc. The 23, 24, 25 are the same shell size with thicker soles and they will shortly become their true shell size, which is the next half centimeter up. Point is the ”whole” sizes are fake sizes. The ”half” sizes are the real ones.
I realise this turned into a linguistic confusion as well as a metric one, we all mean the same thing.

 

[DocGKR]

Buy the boots from the boot-fitter and all the fit time is included in the purchase cost. At Start Haus, you also get several months of additional fit adjustment at no cost.

The lace-up liners were a revelation, as for years it was excruciatingly painful to get my foot in and out of boots. Now I just put on the liners, then jam my liner ensconced feet into the boot shells--no pain, no hassles; getting out is pain free and easy as well.

Note that the WC 150 lace-up liners were so nice, that Reed ordered an extra pair which we put into my previous Nordica GP 140's, making them more comfortable and easier to ingress/egress as well.

 

[fatbob]

Sure but a business model where every customer needs 5+ hours of work is going to put most bootfitters out of business if they don't charge extra fitting fees so squeezing everyone into undersized plugs is never going to be particularly viable.

 

[S.H.]

Sure but a business model where every customer needs 5+ hours of work is going to put most bootfitters out of business if they don't charge extra fitting fees so squeezing everyone into undersized plugs is never going to be particularly viable.

who said "everyone"?

I'm in a "plug". The first time with my fitter, it was probably 3 hours of work. The shell shape hasn't really changed in many generations (i'm in a Tecnica [Dobermann clone]), so the last couple of times, it's been about 60-90 minutes. It's pretty efficient, since my fitter has all the notes on what we've done in the past as a starting point. Now, I'm less work than most of his customers (he doesn't even have to choose a boot for me). It's usually not 5 hours to get somebody into a plug. Some people yes, others, no.

For most people, a "plug" isn't the right choice. But for some people, it is. And I don't think that's limited to racers (though I was/am one). To me, the OP is just saying not to be instantly against the solution *AS A SKIER*.

I don't think this is a discussion about the best business models for bootfitters.