Hard pressure on tips while on steeper terrain (Carved short turns?)

[geepers]

So there’s something to it because in half or more of the lessons you might take they will tell you to pressure the cuffs.

What's with this pressure the cuffs thing? Is it a USA (mostly) phenomena?

In recent years have done workshops and lessons with 15 CSIA L4s, 6 of whom were either current or former CSIA Demo Team Members (so presumably they knew a bit about the CSIA approach). None of 'em were advising us to pressure the cuffs. Maintain contact with the cuff as a reference, yes. Pressure it, no. Most of that was multi-day workshops so there was plenty of opportunity for the topic to come up.

There'd also be a dozen CSIA L3s and none of them mentioned it.

 

[Zirbl]

What's with this pressure the cuffs thing? Is it a USA (mostly) phenomena?

It's not a rare school of thought that pressure is driven to the tip not by moving the centre of mass forward but by driving into the tongue of the boot. The thinking is that forward pressure on the ski is transferred through a forward move against the plastic of the boot. Not limited to the USA. I once went back to a bootfitter in Austria after a coach told me I wasn't getting enough tip pressure because my boots were too stiff and blocking my com from moving forward enough. After some discussion of how I skied, the fitter said I wasn't driving the shins into the tongue enough. That was someone who fitted boots for WC athletes. Also come across it in a German forum. There are clearly two positions on this.

 

[KingGrump]

It's not a rare school of thought that pressure is driven to the tip not by moving the centre of mass forward but by driving into the tongue of the boot. The thinking is that forward pressure on the ski is transferred through a forward move against the plastic of the boot. Not limited to the USA. I once went back to a bootfitter in Austria after a coach told me I wasn't getting enough tip pressure because my boots were too stiff and blocking my com from moving forward enough. After some discussion of how I skied, the fitter said I wasn't driving the shins into the tongue enough. That was someone who fitted boots for WC athletes. Also come across it in a German forum. There are clearly two positions on this.

Strength of the boot is in the spine. Not on the cuff.
Most skiers think crushing the cuff is the key to good skiing. What they are actually doing is stretch the power strap to pull on the spine of the boot.

Many instructor teaches the get forward trick because most of the skiers are skiing off the back seat.

 

[scott43]

Strength of the boot is in the spine. Not on the cuff.
Most skiers think crushing the cuff is the key to good skiing. What they are actually doing is stretch the power strap to pull on the spine of the boot.

Many instructor teaches the get forward trick because most of the skiers are skiing off the back seat.

My instructor buddy told me the oh shit handles are out front and reach for them... But he also told me don't push in the tongues hard. So I take that to mean be balanced but not that you can't use some pressure when needed..

 

[François Pugh]

What's with this pressure the cuffs thing? Is it a USA (mostly) phenomena?

In recent years have done workshops and lessons with 15 CSIA L4s, 6 of whom were either current or former CSIA Demo Team Members (so presumably they knew a bit about the CSIA approach). None of 'em were advising us to pressure the cuffs. Maintain contact with the cuff as a reference, yes. Pressure it, no. Most of that was multi-day workshops so there was plenty of opportunity for the topic to come up.

There'd also be a dozen CSIA L3s and none of them mentioned it.

Consider the audience. Someone who is not using the front half of the ski verses a level 3 candidate. A risky instruction for sure as pushing forward can push you back, but it could work for some folk.

Yes, we all know the power strap stresses the spine when you crush the front of the boot; it's just trying to keep it simple.

Also worth noting the amount of forward (tip) pressure to start a turn depends on conditions, ski flex profile, side-cut profile, rocker profile and turn desired: lazy turn on a sl ski on hero snow - not much, tight quick GS turn on Tremblant ice on an antique "straight" SG ski - a heck of a lot, medium turn on a full rocker high-speed capable ski - some, but you need to tip the ski over first so the tips are touching the snow.

 

[AmyPJ]

This has evolved into an interesting discussion, because I have had it drilled into me pretty hard to "hold that $100 bill between your shin and the tongue" (NOT by my husband, BTW, who does not advocate this.) Years of equestrian riding lessons have made it fairly easy for me to implement changes like that, but I'm having a hell of a time undoing it. Decades of equestrian lessons and competitions have also made for someone who can dorsiflex in her sleep. We are told "heels down!" from day 1 on a horse.

 

[scott43]

This has evolved into an interesting discussion, because I have had it drilled into me pretty hard to "hold that $100 bill between your shin and the tongue" (NOT by my husband, BTW, who does not advocate this.) Years of equestrian riding lessons have made it fairly easy for me to implement changes like that, but I'm having a hell of a time undoing it. Decades of equestrian lessons and competitions have also made for someone who can dorsiflex in her sleep. We are told "heels down!" from day 1 on a horse.

Same with cycling.. Heels down please..

 

[mdf]

It's an conundrum...
Since so many students are in the backseat, "get forward, get forward, get forward!" is useful instruction. But it is certainly possible to be too far forward. So does the "don't teach anything that later has to be un-learned" adage apply? Or does the power of exaggeration overrule that?

 

[Tony S]

Consider the audience. Someone who is not using the front half of the ski verses a level 3 candidate. A risky instruction for sure as pushing forward can push you back, but it could work for some folk.

Exactly. +1

 

[Tony S]

I have had it drilled into me pretty hard to "hold that $100 bill between your shin and the tongue"

That could be interpreted as "contact" not "crushing." You're not trying to squeeze the ink out of that bill; you're just trying to make sure it doesn't fly away.

 

[François Pugh]

That could be interpreted as "contact" not "crushing." You're not trying to squeeze the ink out of that bill; you're just trying to make sure it doesn't fly away.

Dude, you're rich; if I had a $100 bill there you bet your adz I would be trying to squeeze the ink out of that bill.

 

[Tony S]

All of these kinds of tips are prone to leading the skier into the "position" trap, right? They're true at a key moment in many turns, maybe, but not at all moments in any turn, and maybe not at any moment in isolated cases. (Think, you're approaching the lip of the half pipe and need to initiate a turn back down.) The fact that a good turn is highly dynamic doesn't mean that the tips are wrong. It just means that tips about a moment in time and the fluid nature of a good turn are "yes and" things, not "either or" things.

 

[AmyPJ]

That could be interpreted as "contact" not "crushing." You're not trying to squeeze the ink out of that bill; you're just trying to make sure it doesn't fly away.

There’s the rub-some of us are very literal. We also like “why” statements.

 

[Tony S]

There’s the rub-some of us are very literal. We also like “why” statements.

So you don't lose the hundred bucks, obviously! LOL

 

[Sanity]

I've heard racers and mogul competitors talking about pressuring the cuffs more than other groups. The reasoning is that in recreational skiing you often can turn whenever you want, so you can just ride the arc given by the ski. But in competitions you must turn at exact times, and a powerful tool to accomplish this is forward pressure. Many racers talk about forward pressure at the top of the turn, whereas many mogul competitors talk about maintaining that forward pressure throughout the turn. A large part of that difference is the radius of the turn. High edge angle turns will leave the skier aft at the end of the turn. Also, deep absorption in moguls leaves the skier aft, though the groomed run short radius turn maintains forward pressure throughout. Also, long radius skis and stiff boots can handle more cuff pressure and may even demand it in certain circumstance as used in competition setups.

 

[SSSdave]

At Kirwood with its long history of winch cat grooming steep ridge lines, only minor numbers of even advanced skiers are able to control direct fall line speed in steepest areas. For years as a show off this non-instructor, has occasionally cranked quick short swing turns on steepest packed powder groomed areas that requires a balanced position because one needs to get on and off turns rapidly. Not possible for this person with my daily skis if on those common ridge line, difficult to edge hard wind packed slabs. Plenty of youtube how to videos of short swings in moderate steeps.

 

[James]

What's with this pressure the cuffs thing? Is it a USA (mostly) phenomena?

This goes back decades. It has been an incantation for many. Including those doing training. Some ski while constantly crushing the cuff. There’s never any discussion either of when you are really into the cuff. Goes with the whole “forward” thing.
Seems to have reduced in last 5 yrs.

Like Mikaela says ^ not staying in one place. She’s even talking about foot squirt there. (The title was “fore-aft”, not “fore”.) The shin preachers are always crushing the tongue.

If being into the cuff was so absolutely essential, you wouldn’t be able to ski competently with the cuff unbuckled. You would lose the $100 bill in the process. Small price to pay.

Maybe people should think about wth they’re doing with their body in turns before it’s too late.

I consider comp style mogul skiing a different entity on this subject.

 

[François Pugh]

I've heard racers and mogul competitors talking about pressuring the cuffs more than other groups. The reasoning is that in recreational skiing you often can turn whenever you want, so you can just ride the arc given by the ski. But in competitions you must turn at exact times, and a powerful tool to accomplish this is forward pressure. Many racers talk about forward pressure at the top of the turn, whereas many mogul competitors talk about maintaining that forward pressure throughout the turn. A large part of that difference is the radius of the turn. High edge angle turns will leave the skier aft at the end of the turn. Also, deep absorption in moguls leaves the skier aft, though the groomed run short radius turn maintains forward pressure throughout. Also, long radius skis and stiff boots can handle more cuff pressure and may even demand it in certain circumstance as used in competition setups.

Also, in racing, the turns set are designed to challenge the skiers and separate the field.

 

[Tony S]

There’s never any discussion either of when you are really into the cuff.

What I was trying to say.

 

[Yo Momma]

All of these kinds of tips are prone to leading the skier into the "position" trap, right? They're true at a key moment in many turns, maybe, but not at all moments in any turn, and maybe not at any moment in isolated cases. (Think, you're approaching the lip of the half pipe and need to initiate a turn back down.) The fact that a good turn is highly dynamic doesn't mean that the tips are wrong. It just means that tips about a moment in time and the fluid nature of a good turn are "yes and" things, not "either or" things.

What I was trying to say

Agreed.... I try to show the intermed/adv skiers I work w/ how to use all turn shapes for all different conditions. I try to give Carving it's proper place as simply one tool in your toolbox to help you navigate. The "How"... I suggest take the time to practice all these excellent suggestions, alone & slow. The newer gear can carve at 5-10 mph on just about any slope. Learn the skill. Practice adding in pole plants and breaths to your size and style. Breathing properly is one of the primary and least emphasized keys to leveling up. Breath and pole control changed my skiing just as much as any other factor.

Keeping up w/ your Crew can be a distraction depending on what you're working on. That is not the time to work on stuff as the pressure to keep it movin' is too intense.

It's rare that I carve an entire slope rec skiing...Just doesn't happen... ever... I stress using the entire gambit of skills together to achieve your goal of carving your Art. Recreational Skiing to me, is Art. There are no absolutes in "Junk" snow. It's a fully dynamic process whereby you are free to use all the tricks at your disposal....sometimes just to stay alive during a run. All the tricks come into play and are fair game in that type of terrain. Learning to choose how to engage each part of the ski&boot complex is critical. It makes managing each turn much easier if you know how to engage all the different parts ... even the back seat...where we've all been after a botched landing. If you don't know how to ski the backs of your boots and skis = and that happens sometimes even if you do.