How to handle no-way, no-go boots an elite boot fitter recommended?

[Hankj]

Quick background snowboarded my whole life, started skiing 4 years ago. Same boots since start. I walked into a Play It Again Sport, pulled on three boots completely unassisted and walked our with Lange SX 130's in 28.5.

The SX 130's have been pretty good. Every time I've had my foot measured since fitter has told me I'm 27.5, dead on left foot and big side of 27.5 right foot. In the SX 130 28.5's I immediately had toe bang, lost the nail. Only on the right - left foot is short enough couldn't reach front of boot. Added insoles, heat molded with toe caps at home. Then 2.5 decent seasons except needing to crank the ankle and top buckles a bit tight. Did some Intuitions when OG inserts packed out, those good but thin padding on top.

About 130-150 days on the Langes figured it was time for properly fitting boots prescribed and fitted by an expert. When to the top dog at a big outdoor multisport shop in my PNW city. Regular free trips to Austria on manufacturer's dime, highest lever certifications, etc.

I've got a very high instep and arch, narrower heel and leg, medium to wide forefoot, pointy big toes out in front of the rest of toes. Ugly but they are mine.

Said I thought my Langes were too big, and I could stand just a touch softer - run the Langes with no bolt in back and even with stock liners they are a hair on the Frankenstein side. But don't dislike the Lange SX 130's and really love the way they drive my skis. I'm 6'3" 210lbs and ski fairly big skis, much more of a driver of ski than a rider of ski.

Tried on some boots. All 27.5. Some wider ones sloppy, some medium too narrow in forefoot. Settled on the Atomic Hawks Prime (100mm) in 27.5. They seemed too small over the instep, but fitter said he could fix that no problem. Heat molded shell and liner with various foam pads on my feet. Did aftermarket footbeds. I expressed that the boot felt really light and WAY softer than my Lange 130's. Apparently light doesn't matter so much, and colder temps will stiffen Hawks Prime 120's.

Skied twice in Atomics. Hated them. banging the hell out of my toes on both feet. Shells feel almost stretchy. Had to crank them down to get a somewhat stable relationship to skis. Circulation cutting off. And still feel sketch above 35mph. They feel short - business part of boot significantly lower on my long leg than Langes. My legs just burned like crazy in these Atomics compared to my Langes.

Returned to shop. Different boot fitter. A young kid. She was very nice and seemed to do a good job. Toe punched both boots. Ground down top of liners and took 30-40% off baseboards. Boots now not quite as gaping at instep buckle.

Skied boots again. Still have to crank them to get rigidity. Toes somewhat better. still cut off circulation - my instep is high enough that in these mid-width boots the ankle strap pressed on my instep when tightened, even with ground base boards. Stability still bad, banged around on a slushy day and legs still burning trying to control skis going fast. My feet stay numb even with boots unbuckled on lift.

Mid day switched back to my Langes and though they aren't ideal in fit they are far better for me. I know wide boots are supposed to be slow and sloppy but my Langes SX's are smooth, powerful and precise, WAY more so than the new Atomics. Salvaged a fun day.

It is 100% clear to me that I will never, ever be able to make these Atomic Hawx 120 work. They just aren't enough of a shell, and regardless of how much the shell can stretch the ankle strap will never be high enough. My Langes felt like equipment but on my feet the Atomics feel . They are absolutely no fun - the only emotion I've ever had while skiing in them is worrying about how poorly they are working for me.

So what do I do? It feels disrespectful to tell the expert that he wiffed and just refuse to deal with the Atomics. But I know in my heart that they are not going to work no matter what is done. more grinding and punching and aftermarket liners aren't going to fix a fundamental mismatch. I'm bummed to be $800 into new boots that I hate. All I ever hear from skiers who know better is "go to a good boot fitter and pay up." I did and did considerably worse than blindly guiding my own process ....

 

[David Chaus]

As far telling "the expert" he wiffed, it depends on who will benefit. It's up to you whether it would be useful to you to tell him. He may or may not take your feedback into consideration for the next customer he works with, hopefully he is open to feedback in the pursuit of constant improvement in his craft.

As far as benefiting yourself, have you considered making the trek to Jim Mates? He used to be in Seattle, recently moved to the Leavenworth area (actually closer to Lake Wenatchee). If anyone can make these boots work for you, either the Lange or Atomics or both, it's Jim.

Custom Boot Service

 

[Tony S]

big outdoor multisport shop

Returned to shop. Different boot fitter. A young kid. She was very nice and seemed to do a good job.

All I ever hear from skiers who know better is "go to a good boot fitter and pay up." I did and did considerably worse than blindly guiding my own process ....

You didn't go to a fitter. You went to a shop, and not even a ski specialist at that. (REI?) A fitter is a specific individual person who takes personal full-satisfaction responsibility for the success of the fit, assuming the customer is able to go with the flow and not insist on getting the pink ones or whatever.

If you still think you went to a fitter, you should be able to get a different boot or a full refund, assuming the boot is the one he picked and not one you picked.

 

[Hankj]

Tony that's interesting. The guy who I first worked with is I think about as certified as you can get, works with a couple of manufacturers as a design and testing consultant, is at least 50 years old and appears that he has done nothing else career-wise.

But context makes a difference I think is what you're saying. A boot fitter is not just a person but a set of practices in a given context. Interesting

FWIW, I'm not talking about REI (I know better than to expect much out of them). More of a mountain style shop, full on full service ski and snowboard shop, mountain bikes and a full-on professional maintenance shop, dabbling in some surf stuff, pretty big skate shop ....

 

[cantunamunch]

Have you spoken to the original fitter yet?

 

[Hankj]

Not yet. He works a schedule later in the week and later in the day so that he can ski as much as possible.

But I should. Or at least talk to someone who can schedule me to talk to him - the appointments are hard to get.

 

[cantunamunch]

But I should. Or at least talk to someone who can schedule me to talk to him - the appointments are hard to get.

I've been where you are. I stuck with the boot and hacked the living daylights out of it, to where it actually got skiable.

Looking back, I had too much success modifying, and lived with no-better-than-meh skiing for too long.

I should have replaced them in the season after I got them, but, hey, pandemic and all.

 

[Hankj]

I've been where you are. I stuck with the boot and hacked the living daylights out of it, to where it actually got skiable.

Looking back, I had too much success modifying, and lived with no-better-than-meh skiing for too long.

I should have replaced them in the season after I got them, but, hey, pandemic and all.

Yeah you nailed it there. I want to ski, and I want to have much fun skiing is possible. My boots need to be Mr Right, not just Mr Right now.

Cue the matchmaker song from Fiddler on the Roof

 

[David Chaus]

“Boot Fitter, Boot Fitter
Find me a boot
Which fits my foot
Without much pain

Boot Fitter Boot Fitter
Find me a boot
That makes me love skiing again.”

 

[David Chaus]

“For slalom, make them responsive
For bumps, please no shin bang
And I really wouldn’t mind if they handled powder again and again.”

 

[Posaune]

As far telling "the expert" he wiffed, it depends on who will benefit. It's up to you whether it would be useful to you to tell him. He may or may not take your feedback into consideration for the next customer he works with, hopefully he is open to feedback in the pursuit of constant improvement in his craft.

As far as benefiting yourself, have you considered making the trek to Jim Mates? He used to be in Seattle, recently moved to the Leavenworth area (actually closer to Lake Wenatchee). If anyone can make these boots work for you, either the Lange or Atomics or both, it's Jim.

Custom Boot Service

This is the answer. Jim Mates is your guy, and the trip to Leavenworth is short compared to what he can do for you. I never had a pair of boots that really fit until Jim got hold of my feet. Now they are happy!

Here's his web site: http://www.custombootservice.com/

 

[dbostedo]

since fitter has told me I'm 27.5, dead on left foot and big side of 27.5 right foot. In the SX 130 28.5's I immediately had toe bang, lost the nail

This part doesn't seem to make sense to me. Most people with well fit boots are in a size at most as big as their measurement, and often a size or two smaller. Measuring 27.5 and being in 28.5 makes me think the toe bang is because they're way too big and let your foot move way to much, leading to nail problems.

It sounds to me like maybe you need a smaller, but stiff boot. That said, maybe you also don't quite know what you need or how things should feel because you've been skiing in way too large boots and have learned to adapt.

Overall it's a very confusing situation to read about, and I suspect the fitter, if good, is heading down the right path with you. I'm curious to see what he says if you revisit with him. (And/or what another fitter would say. )

 

[Hankj]

This part doesn't seem to make sense to me. Most people with well fit boots are in a size at most as big as their measurement, and often a size or two smaller. Measuring 27.5 and being in 28.5 makes me think the toe bang is because they're way too big and let your foot move way to much, leading to nail problems.

It sounds to me like maybe you need a smaller, but stiff boot. That said, maybe you also don't quite know what you need or how things should feel because you've been skiing in way too large boots and have learned to adapt.

Overall it's a very confusing situation to read about, and I suspect the fitter, if good, is heading down the right path with you. I'm curious to see what he says if you revisit with him. (And/or what another fitter would say. )

Yeah I do think the 28.5's are too big and that's why I got toe bang, foot sliding forward. Solved it in those boots with insoles with a big arch, high volume inserts, and tight ankle strapping.

But in Atomic 27.5 My toes are definitely touching the front of the boot even when I push my shins forward. In the Atomic 27.5s Even with the toe punch still the type of toe trauma that eventually makes the nail fall off. And weirdly this is with my right foot in both the 27.5s and 28.5s. Left foot doesn't experience the problem as much. I have weird feet must admit that.

I will say that even though the Lange SX 130's are 102 wide and shells a little too big, they're not sloppy boots, neither in how they feel nor and how they ski. They're quickly responsive and very stable.

It's very surprising to me how much less stable the Atomic 120s feel to me. I'm wondering if my big old high instep is the problem in them. Literally before the base grind the shell of the Atomic 120s was gaping open a little bit below the ankle buckle. I'm talking about when buckled up to ski. I wonder if that stretchy thin plastic in the Atomic boot just doesn't overlap and wrap around my foot enough to create a stable tubular shape. Whatever it is, definitely not a boot for me. I might not be a good enough skier for them. I tend to use pretty big and heavy skis and rely on somewhat spasmodic power to get them down the hill. It's fun enough for me grunting around the ski resort, but maybe to do it I need a boot that is more on the 9lb hammer side of the spectrum. The Atomics seems surgical in a way that is above my ability.

 

[Hankj]

Anyway thanks for listening! All this boot stuff kind of gave me anxiety and it was nice to vent. I really should just stick to buying way too many skis, heck of a lot more fun than boots

 

[Tony S]

Anyway thanks for listening! All this boot stuff kind of gave me anxiety and it was nice to vent. I really should just stick to buying way too many skis, heck of a lot more fun than boots

Boots are the pits. For sure.

 

[x10003q]

Yeah you nailed it there. I want to ski, and I want to have much fun skiing is possible. My boots need to be Mr Right, not just Mr Right now.

Cue the matchmaker song from Fiddler on the Roof

"if I were a rich man" is another choice

 

[Tom K.]

Honestly, I think you kind of owe it to the initial fitter to pay him another visit.

It could be a simple fix. Not likely, but possible.

 

[Marker]

Yeah I do think the 28.5's are too big and that's why I got toe bang, foot sliding forward. Solved it in those boots with insoles with a big arch, high volume inserts, and tight ankle strapping.

But in Atomic 27.5 My toes are definitely touching the front of the boot even when I push my shins forward. In the Atomic 27.5s Even with the toe punch still the type of toe trauma that eventually makes the nail fall off. And weirdly this is with my right foot in both the 27.5s and 28.5s. Left foot doesn't experience the problem as much. I have weird feet must admit that.

I will say that even though the Lange SX 130's are 102 wide and shells a little too big, they're not sloppy boots, neither in how they feel nor and how they ski. They're quickly responsive and very stable.

It's very surprising to me how much less stable the Atomic 120s feel to me. I'm wondering if my big old high instep is the problem in them. Literally before the base grind the shell of the Atomic 120s was gaping open a little bit below the ankle buckle. I'm talking about when buckled up to ski. I wonder if that stretchy thin plastic in the Atomic boot just doesn't overlap and wrap around my foot enough to create a stable tubular shape. Whatever it is, definitely not a boot for me. I might not be a good enough skier for them. I tend to use pretty big and heavy skis and rely on somewhat spasmodic power to get them down the hill. It's fun enough for me grunting around the ski resort, but maybe to do it I need a boot that is more on the 9lb hammer side of the spectrum. The Atomics seems surgical in a way that is above my ability.

FWIW I went from Lange RS 130 to Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 and like both boots after expert boot fitting. Since I need 30.5 in LV I don't have many choices. Both required my right toes to be punched out to the limit to get them off the shell, while the left foot is perfect. The Langes feel stiffer, which is fine for my carvers, but I like the feel of the Atomics for all mountain skiing. I suspect you should stay with a 130, but you need to let your fitter know your problems.

 

[no edge]

OP(er), I have been to a lot of boot fitters. First if you start off working with "the man" (or woman), it sucks to when you are handed off to someone else or a change occurs. If you go back make a push to work with the fitter you trusted from the start.

I hope that your search for a new boot includes Lange - not suggesting it's a solution but you have had some success there. If anything, Lange might be a good base line. Or they could be the ticket. Does your shop offer Lange?

 

[cantunamunch]

It's very surprising to me how much less stable the Atomic 120s feel to me. I'm wondering if my big old high instep is the problem in them. Literally before the base grind the shell of the Atomic 120s was gaping open a little bit below the ankle buckle. I'm talking about when buckled up to ski. I wonder if that stretchy thin plastic in the Atomic boot just doesn't overlap and wrap around my foot enough to create a stable tubular shape. Whatever it is, definitely not a boot for me. I might not be a good enough skier for them. I tend to use pretty big and heavy skis and rely on somewhat spasmodic power to get them down the hill. It's fun enough for me grunting around the ski resort, but maybe to do it I need a boot that is more on the 9lb hammer side of the spectrum. The Atomics seems surgical in a way that is above my ability.

I think it's a factor of three things -
The boot is actually softer, especially where you're used to the Langes hardening up more in cold.
The rebound of the shell is different from what you're used to, the Atomic rebound being lower. The shell doesn't recover between one power move and the next.
You're not feeling the presence of the shell against your shin.