Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[nay]

I'm confused because I thought the 3PMSF symbol was an indicator of a true winter tire that remained soft in -6*C and colder. So now my question is: how does one tell which tire is a true winter tire?

Falken themselves say just about word for word on their site for the AT Trail what Tire Rack said.

I’ve run a bunch of tires in really cold conditions, including super soft rock crawling tires, and none of these higher traction all weather tires freeze up. At all. Those days are long past.

A “true winter tire” is going to always be focused on 2d traction - the slick surface. And that’s pretty much the only way they test them. The tires we’ve been featuring on this thread for 5 years now are really your all mountain skis.

The case study here a) this is a Subaru and b) tire manufacturers are starting to make all weather light duty AT tires specifically for these vehicles rather than a pink and shrink approach to truck tires. Vaunted symmetrical AWD with traction control. Plenty heavy at 4,600 lbs curb weight.

Let’s revisit last winter where this Forrester transferred power from the wheels that grip to the wheels that slip. My daughter drives this exact car, same color even, and she was with me. All the modern Sube traction goodies are present here.


I drove through turning right up that hill, with a bit of drama, on this tire:

So what I don’t know is if a Sube can use a tire like the AT Trail effectively like a good 4x4 can. What I do know is that while the winter rating only means a tire has to exceed a reference all season by 10% in stopping distance, I have yet to drive one that wasn’t at least good at everything, vastly superior to a reference all season, and more than enough to get anywhere I was going with little to no drama in any conditions. That’s why I started this thread - tires have come a long ways even in that time.

Tire rack sells tires. It really isn’t great for them to have a 65K tire than can do everything.

 

[nay]

So it turns out the lack of a 3PMSF symbol is no big deal because the presence of 3PMSF doesn't necessarily mean stellar winter performance. Way to go tire manufacturers and government regulators for totally screwing up and muddying the waters for consumers or maybe that should be thanks for freeze/thawing the snow.

I think what the 3PMSF standard did was open up the idea that high traction tires carry performance into winter with their modern compounds and that makes them “all weather” tires even though it’s really just the evolution of “all terrain”.

This tire is taking things more specific. Falken answers the “what’s the difference” question here:

 

[François Pugh]

My 2019 Tacoma came with M&S tires, no 3PMSF but they are legal in winter in B.C. I thought this was kinda sketchy but my biggest winter/spring concern is my 250' driveway and the Tacoma with 4Lo and rear diff locker can overcome any tire deficiency.

So it turns out the lack of a 3PMSF symbol is no big deal because the presence of 3PMSF doesn't necessarily mean stellar winter performance. Way to go tire manufacturers and government regulators for totally screwing up and muddying the waters for consumers or maybe that should be thanks for freeze/thawing the snow.

I've read somewhere, and I believe it, that the idea behind 3PMSF was great and it started out fine, but the manufacturers resisted and lowered the bar to 10% better, so they could continue to use the BS baffles brains marketing strategy.

 

[nay]

I've read somewhere, and I believe it

Let’s collectively name a 3PMSF tire that we think is only 10% better than a reference all season.

I’ll go first:

 

[Andy Mink]

Let’s collectively name a 3PMSF tire that we think is only 10% better than a reference all season.

I’ll go first:

The SLL. Slightly Less Lousy.

 

[François Pugh]

When this first came out, there were a lot of M+S tires that would pass the 3PMSF standard, but didn't have the symbol because the manufacturers hadn't gotten around to testing them yet. There may still be lots out there. Nobody ( not even @Nobody ) is saying a tire with the symbol isn't any more than 10% better than the secret no-season; we're just saying that's all the symbol says.

 

[François Pugh]

I’ve run a bunch of tires in really cold conditions, including super soft rock crawling tires, and none of these higher traction all weather tires freeze up. At all. Those days are long past.

Maybe it gets colder in Sudbury. Maybe the performance degradation I've noticed is at the end of the spectrum your tires don't reach anyway. I don't know, but I have noticed a definite drop in performance on ice and ice under snow when the temperature is around -10 F compared to what those super ice gripping tires have when it's above 10 F. I can't tell you if it's the compound getting harder or if it's the micro-pores not having any water to suck up off the ice, but the tires definitely don't grip as well, and grip even worse at -40.

 

[François Pugh]

Let’s collectively name a 3PMSF tire that we think is only 10% better than a reference all season.

I’ll go first:

Sorry, I can't contribute there; I only buy the good winter tires.

 

[nay]

Maybe it gets colder in Sudbury. Maybe the performance degradation I've noticed is at the end of the spectrum your tires don't reach anyway. I don't know, but I have noticed a definite drop in performance on ice and ice under snow when the temperature is around -10 F compared to what those super ice gripping tires have when it's above 10 F. I can't tell you if it's the compound getting harder or if it's the micro-pores not having any water to suck up off the ice, but the tires definitely don't grip as well, and grip even worse at -40.

I’ve run a rock crawling tire circa 2004 at -30F without performance degradatIon. One reason I prefer really serious off-road tires of a certain type for winter use is that there soft sticky compounds are…soft sticky compounds. Like the type that wears out 22/32nd of tread depth in under 30K miles.

This full size pickup truck is off the road because of the glare ice underneath the snow at the start of a major blizzard. It took me over an hour to get him out of the ditch and he’s mostly out here. The pull is with the Patagonia MT, a tire with a perfect mix of dig and forward pull. The result is this:


There isn’t a winter tire that has ever been made that would do anything but sit and spin in conditions like this - they simply don’t have the pull. There are a lot of criteria for performance. Extreme temps are not high on the list for most people and modern silica compounds handle a really wide range of common operating temps.

One of the biggest reasons I don’t care too much about the whole “microcell compound pulling water off of ice” is that for the most part in the U.S. intermountain west there isn’t any water on the ice, at least until our transportation department creates it. We get really cold powder sitting on top of dry ice. In that case, you want a tire that will pull the powder up into the tread. That looks like this:


And to emphasize how slick it is and what caused the grip and nice controlled stop (pulling powder into the tread), this:


Not a winter tire, not a 3PMSF tire. Just a high traction tire that is doing exactly what you need in those conditions.

Funny enough, tightly packed treads with tons of siping aren’t all that good at this, because so many of them rely on pulling up moisture to create traction. That’s flat out useless when there isn’t any moisture to pull because it’s winter conditions at low relative humidity compared to a maritime climate. And then they also aren’t very good in slush and they aren’t very good in soapy conditions, because siping doesn’t matter in those conditions, evacuating the lugs with high lateral traction does.

Conversely, maritime ice is the worst thing for these tires. Colorado uses mag chloride to turn cold powder into wet ice these days, in part because putting down fine gravel ruins adjacent watershed ecosystems. That’s why I-70 is such a shift show. Snow itself is relative high traction. Turning it to ice at while creating a melt point at 17 degrees F is a pretty perfectly engineered way to defeat a lot of tires that would otherwise at least be marginal.

I’ll say it a thousand times: only cars need specialized winter traction. If you have real drivetrain traction, you can afford a vastly broader performance envelope.

 

[nay]

Sorry, I can't contribute there; I only buy the good winter tires.

Ya, I started this thread to help people determine if that really makes sense for them. It does for some, and it doesn’t for some.

I would 100% buy winter tires if they made any sense for me, but I do stupid sh$t in winter and cars on winter tires are kids toys .

 

[François Pugh]

I’ve run a rock crawling tire circa 2004 at -30F without performance degradatIon. One reason I prefer really serious off-road tires of a certain type for winter use is that there soft sticky compounds are…soft sticky compounds. Like the type that wears out 22/32nd of tread depth in under 30K miles.

There isn’t a winter tire that has ever been made that would do anything but sit and spin in conditions like this - they simply don’t have the pull. There are a lot of criteria for performance. Extreme temps are not high on the list for most people and modern silica compounds handle a really wide range of common operating temps.

One of the biggest reasons I don’t care too much about the whole “microcell compound pulling water off of ice” is that for the most part in the U.S. intermountain west there isn’t any water on the ice, at least until our transportation department creates it. We get really cold powder sitting on top of dry ice. In that case, you want a tire that will pull the powder up into the tread.

I’ll say it a thousand times: only cars need specialized winter traction. If you have real drivetrain traction, you can afford a vastly broader performance envelope.

Yes, horses for courses. Our snow here isn't dry, but it's not sopping wet either sometimes, but when its 40 below, there doesn't seem to be any water on the ice, even under the pressure of the travelling tire. The many sipes and micro-pores do make a difference in something like an X-ice as compared to the snow tires of yesteryear, but when it's really cold, not so much, could be due to the low absolute humidity.

Referring to the bolded portion, are you saying that if you have a car a specialized winter traction tire, e.g. studded Hakka 9, will provide more needed traction than one of your "soft" off-road tires?

It's coming across as if your saying that yes that tire (studded Hakka 9) provides more traction, but it's not needed if you have a big heavy vehicle with a drivetrain that provides proper traction options (like lockers, torsen diffs., etc.).

 

[tball]

I’ll say it a thousand times: only cars need specialized winter traction.

Unless you want to stop on packed snow or ice. Especially at highway speeds.

Watch this to the end:

 

[DanoT]

Anyone ever have the contact patch of your tires freeze solid overnight when it is -40? It means the tire is out of round and when you start driving it creates a thumping and vibration that is the worst you have ever experienced. If you don't know that it is frozen tire you might think a wheel or axle is about to fall off. Fortunately it only takes a hundred or so feet for the tire to heat up enough to return to a round shape. Scary the first time it happens.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'm going to have to drive up and over a steep mountain road, part of it dirt, in order to get from my seasonal lodging to work at Sugarbush in Vermont. The road is known as Roxbury Mountain Road. Because the road is so tough to drive when there's ice or mud, a homeowner on the road maintains a website (https://www.facebook.com/RoxburyGapStat/) that shows what the condition du jour is.

This route will get me to work 35++ minutes. The flatter route will be 60++ minutes.

I've been told by mountain employees to buy studded snow tires. I have a 2017 Subaru Forester. I'm considering Hallapelitta 8 studded snow tires because of some review I read online. I've never bought nor driven studs.

What should I know about tires that I obviously don't know?

 

[skibob]

Anyone ever have the contact patch of your tires freeze solid overnight when it is -40? It means the tire is out of round and when you start driving it creates a thumping and vibration that is the worst you have ever experienced. If you don't know that it is frozen tire you might think a wheel or axle is about to fall off. Fortunately it only takes a hundred or so feet for the tire to heat up enough to return to a round shape. Scary the first time it happens.

Yep. Chicago, January of 1994 I think it was. New absolute low record of -35. My car was the only one of my friends that would start and I went to 5 friends and jump started their cars that day. Like you said, first 100' or so they come back into shape. I had a notion what it was, but I had no idea how long it would take to work itself out. I was considering turning around when it started to get better.

 

[cantunamunch]

Anyone ever have the contact patch of your tires freeze solid overnight when it is -40? It means the tire is out of round and when you start driving it creates a thumping and vibration that is the worst you have ever experienced. If you don't know that it is frozen tire you might think a wheel or axle is about to fall off. Fortunately it only takes a hundred or so feet for the tire to heat up enough to return to a round shape. Scary the first time it happens.

Yup. Parking lot at MSA. I've *also* made the mistake of leaving the hand brake on (not at the same time, praise be).

 

[sparty]

I'm going to have to drive up and over a steep mountain road, part of it dirt, in order to get from my seasonal lodging to work at Sugarbush in Vermont. The road is known as Roxbury Mountain Road. Because the road is so tough to drive when there's ice or mud, a homeowner on the road maintains a website (https://www.facebook.com/RoxburyGapStat/) that shows what the condition du jour is.

This route will get me to work 35++ minutes. The flatter route will be 60++ minutes.

I've been told by mountain employees to buy studded snow tires. I have a 2017 Subaru Forester. I'm considering Hallapelitta 8 studded snow tires because of some review I read online. I've never bought nor driven studs.

What should I know about tires that I obviously don't know?

Studded Hakks are generally a good choice. You may want to consider something with a bit more tread gap for mud, but I think studded Hakks should be fine whenever the surface is frozen.

And yes, I'm familiar with the road in question.

 

[sparty]

Let’s collectively name a 3PMSF tire that we think is only 10% better than a reference all season.

I’ll go first:

Radar Renegade A/T5, perhaps. Without knowing what the reference all-season is, I can't say for sure, but I can vouch for them being terrifying on packed snow or (worse) patchy firm snow and ice on pavement (think early season, unplowed but paved road, and some wind involved to hide which spots are or are not slippery).

They work well enough in deeper snow and are tolerable in slush.

 

[cantunamunch]

And yes, I'm familiar with the road in question.

How balanced are recent Foresters for roads like that? Is LF likely to run into a "need to unload the trunk" situation?


Also, tow straps.

 

[sparty]

How balanced are recent Foresters for roads like that? Is LF likely to run into a "need to unload the trunk" situation?


Also, tow straps.

I don't know about the current-generation ones, but I'd consider my mother's previous-generation Forester adequate on that road outside of bad mud season, when clearance would become an issue (then again, they usually close it when it gets really bad). I would be mindful of days that start out frozen and then get warm, because you might find that driving to the mountain is easy and driving home isn't.

Having a recovery strap probably isn't a bad idea, but make sure you have a way to attach it properly, too. I have no idea what Foresters offer in that regard, but I will note that on most gravel roads in New England, you stand a good chance of having someone at least try to pull you out if you can hook up your own recovery strap and are standing with the other end in hand when they come by. I would get something reasonably dynamic, though, not a static tow strap.