Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[James]

LOL, I changed wheel sizes to avoid the Geolandar.

So tell us the problem.
The closest Ultra Terrain tire is 275/70/18 That’s 2.1- 2.3 inches bigger in diameter than the 275/60/18 Michelin Defender Ltx, or Geolander. Too much.
Ltx seems to get good snow reviews.

For the other car, Vredstein Quatrac pro is a good all around too and good on the highway.
Still, I’m wondering if there’s a “performance” version of these all weathers such as Cross Climates or the Quatrac Pros.

 

[cantunamunch]

So tell us the problem.

Indifferent bordering on treacherous in black ice conditions. You couldn't brake softly enough to avoid triggering ABS. Fast tread wear, hateful in the rain at highway speeds.

Like I said, I changed wheel sizes to avoid that tire. 18->17

 

[nay]

Michelin's Defender LTX is a benchmark for a reason.

If “go” isn’t in the equation and neither is price, I think this is a good answer.

OTOH, if it’s not budget, buy some cool rims (red anyone?) and go 17” and give yourself a bit more sidewall. Order rims and tires together and get free mount and balance and shipping and maybe taxes.

The new Geolanders are good tires, the newest stuff is better than the best stuff from 3-4 years ago. It’s quite like skis.

But...it also depends on the vehicle. I know Cruisers very well and how they put down traction and I’d lean to a truck tire there as one ring to rule them all. That’s kinda the entire concept of this thread, you can’t put some of these tires on a light car and get much out of them, but the best 4x4s don’t need winter tires at all and just end up with a narrow and expensive performance band when you use them.

 

[James]

If “go” isn’t in the equation and neither is price, I think this is a good answer.

OTOH, if it’s not budget, buy some cool rims (red anyone?) and go 17” and give yourself a bit more sidewall. Order rims and tires together and get free mount and balance and shipping and maybe taxes.

The new Geolanders are good tires, the newest stuff is better than the best stuff from 3-4 years ago. It’s quite like skis.

But...it also depends on the vehicle. I know Cruisers very well and how they put down traction and I’d lean to a truck tire there as one ring to rule them all. That’s kinda the entire concept of this thread, you can’t put some of these tires on a light car and get much out of them, but the best 4x4s don’t need winter tires at all and just end up with a narrow and expensive performance band when you use them.

So if you look at the Wrangler Ultra Terrain, you’ve got a choice in 17 inch size of I presume the light truck vs not.
In 265/70/17. It should work, seems only about 0.5 inch greater diameter.
You’ve got a choice-
115S, load range SL, 44lbs/tire, S=112mph
121Q, load range E1, 51lbs/tire, Q=100mph

My question is, will the higher profile, narrower tire “perform” better?
#2 is does it make sense to get the heavier tire? Does the lug pattern/spacing change or just the internals?

Not out of the question for that vehicle to do 100...
If you lived in west Texas, I suppose you’d have to set the cruise at 99. Because 100 and she’ll blow, and sub 90 you’ll be bored to death and everything’s moot.

 

[princo]

This is timely for me.

Our 2003 Landcruiser needs new tires. I have owned this “cars/trucks” for 20+ years. This is our third 100.

In the winter, we have run Nokian Hakkas. No complaints, and lots of pluses. Our most recent set is now on the vehicle and they are at the end of their life...or what I am comfortable with.

This is not an offroad vehicle. 99% of driving is on pavement. Which in New England can suck in the winter. Summer, it can get hot and humid. We drive this car less than 10K miles a year. Third vehicle for us.

Stock size. Or close.
Thanks!

Have you looked at the Nokian Rotiiva AT Plus? It is Nokian's light duty AT tire with 3PMSF. It comes in 275/65R18. I think this tire would be great for your usage. I have them in my 4Runner all year round and I'm quite pleased with them. They do well on the highway and are quiet, decent in snow, and can handle light off road duties very well.

 

[nay]

It’s time for the hybrid hybrid market to emerge. Falken Wildpeak AT Trail specifically designed for the CUV market and Subaru in particular.

Dropped rim size on the new Ascent from 20” to a proper 18” and used the factory 18” tire size that comes on the more base models.

First impression onroad is a much better handling sidewall for the vehicle weight and it’s easily absorbing big hits that had punched into the rim previously. No real extra weight here over stock - seems like the advantage of the AT market without the truck heavy duty.

65K treadlife warranty, winter rated. Did I mention that winter tires are dead?

 

[Wendy]

It’s time for the hybrid hybrid market to emerge. Falken Wildpeak AT Trail specifically designed for the CUV market and Subaru in particular.

Dropped rim size on the new Ascent from 20” to a proper 18” and used the factory 18” tire size that comes on the more base models.

First impression onroad is a much better handling sidewall for the vehicle weight and it’s easily absorbing big hits that had punched into the rim previously. No real extra weight here over stock - seems like the advantage of the AT market without the truck heavy duty.

65K treadlife warranty, winter rated. Did I mention that winter tires are dead?

View attachment 144210 View attachment 144211

That’s the tire I’m thinking of getting for my new Sienna.

 

[Muleski]

It’s time for the hybrid hybrid market to emerge. Falken Wildpeak AT Trail specifically designed for the CUV market and Subaru in particular.

Dropped rim size on the new Ascent from 20” to a proper 18” and used the factory 18” tire size that comes on the more base models.

First impression onroad is a much better handling sidewall for the vehicle weight and it’s easily absorbing big hits that had punched into the rim previously. No real extra weight here over stock - seems like the advantage of the AT market without the truck heavy duty.

65K treadlife warranty, winter rated. Did I mention that winter tires are dead?

View attachment 144210 View attachment 144211

So, your plan is to run those year round?
I’m doing a lot of thinking myself right now. One car is a 328xi wagon, six speed. Tje other is a Land Cruiser 100.

Thinking that a dedicated winter/snow tire and wheels may not be needed for the BMW. Mainly because I don’t need a real high performance summer tire.

Also thinking that I probably can come up with a better solution for the LC than Hakka’s in the winter and Michelin LTX in the summer.

So many advances in tires. Not all that long ago I had summer wheels & tires, a set for shoulder seasons, and winter/snows.

Any ideas much appreciated. 18” on the LC, 17” on the BMW. It was delivered new with horrible run-flats….

 

[DanoT]

I'm not sure what the difference is between Falken Wildpeak AT Trail vs Falken Rubitrek AT. Both are full winter rated 3PMSF.

https://www.falkentire.com/tires/light-truck-suv-cuv-tires/rubitrek/t-tire

Last winter I bought 4 Falken Rubitek AT: LT235/85/16 load range E, 10 ply rated, for my Dodge Diesel pickup. $900CAD balanced and installed. I don't know if they come in lower ply rated non LT. I am very happy with them and will probably get a set for my Tacoma when the stock tires wear out.

 

[jmeb]

65K treadlife warranty, winter rated. Did I mention that winter tires are dead?

Eagerly awaiting this review. I was underwhelmed with it's direct competitor -- the Cooper Discover AT3 4S -- when compared with the Falken AT3W (not the trail.) So much so that I have a set of cheaply acquired full winter tires/rims (X-Ice Snow SUV) to run this winter while I get another summer or two out of the Discoverer.

 

[nay]

So, your plan is to run those year round?
I’m doing a lot of thinking myself right now. One car is a 328xi wagon, six speed. Tje other is a Land Cruiser 100.

Thinking that a dedicated winter/snow tire and wheels may not be needed for the BMW. Mainly because I don’t need a real high performance summer tire.

Also thinking that I probably can come up with a better solution for the LC than Hakka’s in the winter and Michelin LTX in the summer.

So many advances in tires. Not all that long ago I had summer wheels & tires, a set for shoulder seasons, and winter/snows.

Any ideas much appreciated. 18” on the LC, 17” on the BMW. It was delivered new with horrible run-flats….

Yes, year round. I don’t run any winter specific tires, I just can’t get a heavier vehicle with a real traction drivetrain to need them.

For the 100 I’d still just get an AT. The Goodyear Ultraterrains we have on our ‘04 4Runner with the 2UZ 5-speed have just been exceptional. Easily will get >50K out of them, still quiet, still eat up winter.

The new Wildpeak Trail is a smart approach to designing an all weather trail-lite tire for the vehicles most people drive now.

The Ascent is something I want to use to replace a big SUV that’s just a hauler. This is a key component. I might lift it 1.5” if we decide it’s suited for a bit more hard duty use, but really winter is coming and it needed 18” rims and tires.

If these really work on a premiere AWD platform then that’s another major box checked. Will of course report back.

 

[nay]

I'm not sure what the difference is between Falken Wildpeak AT Trail vs Falken Rubitrek AT. Both are full winter rated 3PMSF.

https://www.falkentire.com/tires/light-truck-suv-cuv-tires/rubitrek/t-tire

Last winter I bought 4 Falken Rubitek AT: LT235/85/16 load range E, 10 ply rated, for my Dodge Diesel pickup. $900CAD balanced and installed. I don't know if they come in lower ply rated non LT. I am very happy with them and will probably get a set for my Tacoma when the stock tires wear out.

The Rubitrek is in more typical LT sizes - to your purchase up to load range E. The AT Trail is going to be OEM on the new RAV4 (at least the supposed offroad model) and is for lower sidewall profile and weight bearing. Like Subarus.

It’s not really an AT - not sure I’d ever want to put a burly AT on a crossover as the suspension and axle stuff isn’t made for the weight like a truck. I know people do it, but if you can get the benefits without the drawbacks….

 

[DanoT]

The Rubitrek is in more typical LT sizes - to your purchase up to load range E. The AT Trail is going to be OEM on the new RAV4 (at least the supposed offroad model) and is for lower sidewall profile and weight bearing. Like Subarus.

It’s not really an AT - not sure I’d ever want to put a burly AT on a crossover as the suspension and axle stuff isn’t made for the weight like a truck. I know people do it, but if you can get the benefits without the drawbacks….

Looking at tire sizes from Falken's website, for the Falken Rubitrek for my 2019 Tacoma, Falken lists a SL 4 ply rated size tire for my truck. Quite a few non LT, lighter weight Rubitrek tires listed. Rubitrek tread appears to be less aggressive than Wildpeak AT3W and I'm guessing Rubitrek is a little more off paved road than the AT Trail.

 

[Alexzn]

A disclaimer from Tire Rack: While non-winter tires featuring the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol may provide additional longitudinal snow traction beyond what all-season (M+S) tires not bearing the symbol can deliver, they do not match the capability of a true winter tire in all adverse weather conditions.

 

[DanoT]

A disclaimer from Tire Rack: While non-winter tires featuring the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol may provide additional longitudinal snow traction beyond what all-season (M+S) tires not bearing the symbol can deliver, they do not match the capability of a true winter tire in all adverse weather conditions.

I'm confused because I thought the 3PMSF symbol was an indicator of a true winter tire that remained soft in -6*C and colder. So now my question is: how does one tell which tire is a true winter tire?

 

[Doug Briggs]

I'm confused because I thought the 3PMSF symbol was an indicator of a true winter tire that remained soft in -6*C and colder. So now my question is: how does one tell which tire is a true winter tire?

You stole the words right out of my mouth.

 

[James]

I'm confused because I thought the 3PMSF symbol was an indicator of a true winter tire that remained soft in -6*C and colder. So now my question is: how does one tell which tire is a true winter tire?

It’ll say winter tire.

The symbol 3PMS:
———————————
But that alpine symbol tells you only about a minimum. Precisely, it guarantees these winter tires’ traction is at least 10-per-cent superior compared to all-season tires when put through the Transport-Canada-approved ASTM F1805 test. (“ASTM” stands for “American Standard Test Method.”)
The symbol says nothing about superior performance in low temperatures, notes Sylvain Légaré, automotive expert at CAA-Quebec. In fact, some all-season truck tires with aggressive treads can wear the Three-Peak Mountain Snowflake symbol even if their compound will not keep cold-weather tires’ flexibility when the mercury drops.

Beside, this test is conducted on medium-packed-snow surfaces, and only while accelerating in a straight line. Nothing, again, is said or tested or established or measured about accelerating on ice – more common in cities – or on that 80cm of fluffy snow that fell over Calgary 10 days ago.
—————————

Winter tire symbols and what you should know

Learn how to trust the snowflake symbol when buying winter tires: our guide explains what the symbol means and how it affects your safety

driving.ca

 

[DanoT]

My 2019 Tacoma came with M&S tires, no 3PMSF but they are legal in winter in B.C. I thought this was kinda sketchy but my biggest winter/spring concern is my 250' driveway and the Tacoma with 4Lo and rear diff locker can overcome any tire deficiency.

So it turns out the lack of a 3PMSF symbol is no big deal because the presence of 3PMSF doesn't necessarily mean stellar winter performance. Way to go tire manufacturers and government regulators for totally screwing up and muddying the waters for consumers or maybe that should be thanks for freeze/thawing the snow.

 

[François Pugh]

There isn't all that much standardized symbology. Speed ratio say how fast you can drive under load in a straight line at a given speed for 1/2 an hour without melting your tire and having it blow out, M+S guarantees a certain void ratio and the 3PMSF guarantees at least 10% better than some secret reference no-season.

At least we have some inkling from various publicly available consumer tests.

 

[DanoT]

Its like the tire industry went to Italy and hired a bunch of guys from the ski boot factories, who can't figure out how to standardize boot flex numbers, and got them building tires.