I Reduced My Boot's Forward Lean and Finally Can Get Forward

[KJL]

I have very flexible ankles and big calves.

My daughter recently observed that I ski "like I'm sitting down" and I suddenly realized maybe that's why I have trouble getting forward enough to feel pressure under my forefoot.

I have long understood that "crushing" my shins into the tongues of my boot, done incorrectly, sends pressure to the heels and causes the forefoot to lift. But despite being aware of this movement pattern I have long had trouble "just leaning forward" with my weight over the balls of my feet.

So I did the "obvious" thing and removed as much forward lean adjustment from my old Head Vector S120 boots as possible.

All of a sudden not only did I feel myself standing taller and more relaxed (perhaps obviously), but I finally experienced what it truly means to get forward over the balls of my feet. Pressure on my boot tongue now just feels like an enhancement of that forward positioning.

(For those who follow Carv, I went from 40% Early Forward Movement and 40% Mid-Turn Centered Balance to 80% on both).

I'm looking forward now to experimenting with reducing boot ramp angle — and perhaps one day adding back forward lean as I become more proficient — but I first wanted to make sure I understood why @otto (and others) advises increasing forward lean for a flexible ankle:

18 degrees is on the flexible side of average. If it is affecting fit or fore/aft balance, you bring the net FL formula back in line by increasing the shells forward lean with wedges or shims between the shell and the liner. This gives you a higher FL number to subtract the bootboard angle from. You could also either raise the forefoot of the bootboard a mm or 2, or lower the heel height a mm or 2. ( only if the fit can still be rock solid holding the heel down and back in the shell.) So if yo can raise the FL of the spoiler to 20 degrees and lower the bootboard to 2 degrees, your net FL will be 18 degrees... Since that is a love match, off you go!!!

Fore/aft alignment when boot shopping

Yes, you can increase the FL number by adding a forward lean wedge. You can also adjust the net FL by either raising the toe of the bootboard a mm or 2. You could also lower the heel height of the bootboard by a mm or 2. This will get you the net FL closest to your measured 15 deg, give or take...

www.skitalk.com

Yet, @otto (and others) also recommends elsewhere what I actually started started with, reducing forward lean for flexible ankles with high range of motion:

Lowering the heel or raising the bootboard toe, will take a few degrees of movement out of the loose ankle joint. Combine that with a straighter upright boot shell that is stiffer and harder to over flex, will normalize the long range of motion that a typical high ROM ankle has.

Forward Lean

I have question (i read blog Mr. Colin "Ankle Flex"). My ski boot have forward lean 15 degrees, but my ankle forward lean max (if my balance is ok) is about 35 degrees. Should i explore/quest this issue?

www.skitalk.com

I assume the reason for the disparate recommendations is because "it's all personal", a la @Rod9301's:

Not always true that more forward lean is easier to pressure the tips.
Often it causes the butt to stick out.

Forward Lean

More forward lean puts you naturally in a more forward stance-easier to pressure the tips. However too much of it makes you lose the contact with the tails which is no good on twin tips, powder ski etc. I ski 16 degrees on groomers and stiff skinny ski and 12 degrees on fatter skis Not always...

www.skitalk.com

 

[James]

Where was your knee, out over the toe?

 

[KJL]

Where was your knee, out over the toe?

I actually do not know this. My bootfitters (SkiStop in Canton, back in the day) presumably adjusted it that way.

I do know that if I added spoilers, I hated it so much I gave them away.

On the slopes, I apparently cheated by crushing the shins, standing on my heels (could feel my forefoot "float"), and sticking my bum out.

Now it's literally reversed itself, with the forward lean removed.

Noticeably harder to skate on snow though .....

 

[cem]

your large calf muscle will have been punching you forward burning up ROM and putting you out of balance, if you are too far forward your body will shift your hips backwards to get itself into a balance position

one of the first things we do when we have a client with a larger than average calf is to measure the circumference and work out how much out of balance they are, we then either alter forward lean or flare the cuff of the boot or make liner modifications to accommodate it

 

[Decreed_It]

My bootfitter unlocked this secret for me a while back. Also have large calves but in my case poor doriflexion. Regardless I like a very upright boot maybe 10-13 degrees max. Once I got that sorted things improved dramatically.

2mm too much is enough to get me completely off balance, knees pushed out over toes, butt back, all quads, terrible. Glad you got that sorted!

 

[Tom K.]

As another data point, I've got BIG calves, very flexible ankles, and I hate upright boots.

Never feel balanced.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I started out with lace up leather boots so ankle strength and flex and applying forward pressure (with the toes and shins) became part of what you learned to do as you learned your technique.

For me when cruising I ski very upright compared to most skiers (and rest on my shins on the tongue of the boot) that never went through this route. As a result with buckle boots I learned to ride the shins and still do.

Part of the error I see intermediate skiers trying to advance is as they apply forward pressure with the shins they sit back to balance (because in their mind they think they are only leaning forward) and the net result is nothing changed. The easiest way to understand forward pressure is lean forward, don't sit back (if anything get more upright) if it feels like you are going over the handle bars you are forward and will see immediate ski response, once you get used to this is becomes a norm and your stance has likely corrected.

 

[freeskier1961]

should one not do what it takes to get knees over toes w/o using up range of motion
made incredible difference for me

 

[James]

I actually do not know this. My bootfitters (SkiStop in Canton, back in the day) presumably adjusted it that way.

I do know that if I added spoilers, I hated it so much I gave them away.

On the slopes, I apparently cheated by crushing the shins, standing on my heels (could feel my forefoot "float"), and sticking my bum out.

Now it's literally reversed itself, with the forward lean removed.

Noticeably harder to skate on snow though .....

I had an issue of being back some years ago when I tried going down a shell size. No calf issue at all, more like chicken legs.

The problem was the boot was just too short. So unconsciously I would flex way forward to keep the toes off the front. That drops the butt back. After a couple weeks I gave up on that experiment.

 

[Tricia]

I have skinny calves and a significant range of motion.
I also like a bit more of an upright stance.
@Philpug likes a bit more forward lean. (also has chicken legs)

Now, @Andy Mink has turkey legs and a ton of ankle ROM. He, like me, likes a bit more of an upright stance.

I tend to find that someone with a lotta leg gets more out of an upright stance.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I forget to mention, yes I have chicken legs. Biggest thing I find I push down on the toes and rest on the shins, where as I think some lift at the toes to push at the shins.

I've skied boots as stiff as 140-150, currently in 130's, in boots without skis attached I can barely flex them when warm, however on skis, in the cold I can seriously flex them as witnessed by the scuff marks on the plastic in the overlap (even when I was seriously lighter than I am now).

I feel skiers need to understand how to apply forward pressure and from my limited experience with instructors, very little is done on how to do this correctly. It is talked about, assumed to be understood, but never taught as a technique.

Maybe some of the seriously better i structors on this site could cobble something together. I know how to, I can easily help someone one on one, but as standard instructional method for the masses a little at a loss here.

 

[Vestirse]

your large calf muscle will have been punching you forward burning up ROM and putting you out of balance, if you are too far forward your body will shift your hips backwards to get itself into a balance position

This was exactly my issue and it took me a really long time to understand what "too far forward" actually meant! I did indeed change my boots to have less forward lean as part of my bid to get over this hump in my progression and constantly remind myself to keep a more open hip .

 

[KJL]

What an amazing set of rich responses, thanks!

Interesting no one mentioned changing boot ramp angle to help “take up” ankle range of motion. That tells me I should work first on cementing my new sensations!

I forget to mention, yes I have chicken legs. Biggest thing I find I push down on the toes and rest on the shins, where as I think some lift at the toes to push at the shins.

…

I feel skiers need to understand how to apply forward pressure and from my limited experience with instructors, very little is done on how to do this correctly. It is talked about, assumed to be understood, but never taught as a technique.

This 100% on the money for me.

Even after I became aware of the “shin + heel to get forward” fallacy, I still could not figure out how to move my balance onto the balls of my feet without literally pressing them down (plantar flexion) though only for a split second of satisfaction.

I will be experimenting next season with adding spoilers back to see if I can continue to maintain my newly-found ability to get forward (properly), but I am not certain I would’ve learned any of this without first making my boots as vertical as possible.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Noodler]

What an amazing set of rich responses, thanks!

Interesting no one mentioned changing boot ramp angle to help “take up” ankle range of motion. That tells me I should work first on cementing my new sensations!


This 100% on the money for me.

Even after I became aware of the “shin + heel to get forward” fallacy, I still could not figure out how to move my balance onto the balls of my feet without literally pressing them down (plantar flexion) though only for a split second of satisfaction.

I will be experimenting next season with adding spoilers back to see if I can continue to maintain my newly-found ability to get forward (properly), but I am not certain I would’ve learned any of this without first making my boots as vertical as possible.

Thanks again, everyone.

"Take up" dorsiflexion ankle RoM? Other than McPhail's theory of the SR stance stuff, reducing dorsiflexion RoM is not usually the goal. While we don't want to feel like we're skiing while wearing high heels, going too flat with the bootboard ramp is also not a recipe for success. Most folks land somewhere between 2*-4* of ramp.

The "land lizard" brain of most skiers cannot compute the idea that plantar flexing does not equal forward pressure for skiing. Trying to create pressure on the BoF almost always results in back seat driving because it's done incorrectly. Any pressure on the BoF should be the side effect of strong foot pullback and dorsiflexion, WHEN your balance is forward. If you actively open your ankle by pushing on the BoF, not only won't you be getting the forward pressure on the skis, but you'll actually be pushing yourself into a more rearward balance position. And be careful of using spoilers unless you really need to be pushed forward more. Quite often they result in the exact opposite effect.

 

[KJL]

"Take up" dorsiflexion ankle RoM? Other than McPhail's theory of the SR stance stuff, reducing dorsiflexion RoM is not usually the goal. While we don't want to feel like we're skiing while wearing high heels, going too flat with the bootboard ramp is also not a recipe for success. Most folks land somewhere between 2*-4* of ramp.

The "land lizard" brain of most skiers cannot compute the idea that plantar flexing does not equal forward pressure for skiing. Trying to create pressure on the BoF almost always results in back seat driving because it's done incorrectly. Any pressure on the BoF should be the side effect of strong foot pullback and dorsiflexion, WHEN your balance is forward. If you actively open your ankle by pushing on the BoF, not only won't you be getting the forward pressure on the skis, but you'll actually be pushing yourself into a more rearward balance position. And be careful of using spoilers unless you really need to be pushed forward more. Quite often they result in the exact opposite effect.

Thank you, that pacifies my thoughts of trying a gas pedal.

Removing spoilers (or, in my case, my boots’ built-in equivalent) is indeed why I’m here today, delighted.

Are there static “land lizard” ways to determine spoiler suitability, or is this more of a “see what happens on the snow” situation.

(I ask because whatever made it seem like I needed maximum forward lean to the bootfitter didn’t translate to the snow.)

 

[Noodler]

Thank you, that pacifies my thoughts of trying a gas pedal.

Removing spoilers (or, in my case, my boots’ built-in equivalent) is indeed why I’m here today, delighted.

Are there static “land lizard” ways to determine spoiler suitability, or is this more of a “see what happens on the snow” situation.

(I ask because whatever made it seem like I needed maximum forward lean to the bootfitter didn’t translate to the snow.)

Gas pedals - do not conflate things we do inside the boot with the things done outside the boot for fore/aft stance alignment. Yes, they can impact each other, but the recommendation is to always get the inside squared away first, then proceed to tipping the entire boot forward or backward to improve the fore/aft balance (like gas pedaling).

For a static check, there are technology laden things like pressure measurement mats or less technical like just dropping a plumb bob from the front of the knee, but in the end what matters the most is the on-snow performance. Personally I don't like to feel overly loaded on my quads while I'm just standing in my boots, but there is a danger in going so "upright" with your stance that you create a significant disadvantage for yourself when you get on steeper slopes. So I bias my fore/aft alignment so that I am just on the fine line between being able to stand with good skeletal support (without needing to use quad strength), but as far forward as possible so that my knees are definitely over my toes and my hips forward of the binding heels. With this setup, the pressure is fairly even from the heels to the BoF. It's at least a good starting point, and you tweak from there.

 

[KJL]

Gas pedals - do not conflate things we do inside the boot with the things done outside the boot for fore/aft stance alignment. Yes, they can impact each other, but the recommendation is to always get the inside squared away first, then proceed to tipping the entire boot forward or backward to improve the fore/aft balance (like gas pedaling).

For a static check, there are technology laden things like pressure measurement mats or less technical like just dropping a plumb bob from the front of the knee, but in the end what matters the most is the on-snow performance. Personally I don't like to feel overly loaded on my quads while I'm just standing in my boots, but there is a danger in going so "upright" with your stance that you create a significant disadvantage for yourself when you get on steeper slopes. So I bias my fore/aft alignment so that I am just on the fine line between being able to stand with good skeletal support (without needing to use quad strength), but as far forward as possible so that my knees are definitely over my toes and my hips forward of the binding heels. With this setup, the pressure is fairly even from the heels to the BoF. It's at least a good starting point, and you tweak from there.

Thanks, I had forgotten a gas pedal wasn’t the same as reducing ramp angle. I meant the latter.

I’m beginning to understand the difference between quad relief when just standing vs having enough forward lean for steeper slopes — because even moderately steep slopes (or icy patches) scare me when they didn’t phase me in the past.

I’ll make sure I can reproduce proper forward balance first before I add back forward lean. I’m afraid if I revert now my butt will go back out!

Maybe I’ll grab some trail maps to stuff behind my calf muscles for a quick assessment of whether I’ve trained my brain enough ….

Thanks again, all very deeply appreciated.

 

[Rod9301]

What an amazing set of rich responses, thanks!

Interesting no one mentioned changing boot ramp angle to help “take up” ankle range of motion. That tells me I should work first on cementing my new sensations!


This 100% on the money for me.

Even after I became aware of the “shin + heel to get forward” fallacy, I still could not figure out how to move my balance onto the balls of my feet without literally pressing them down (plantar flexion) though only for a split second of satisfaction.

I will be experimenting next season with adding spoilers back to see if I can continue to maintain my newly-found ability to get forward (properly), but I am not certain I would’ve learned any of this without first making my boots as vertical as possible.

Thanks again, everyone.

Your balance should not be on the balls of your foot, but right under the tibia, approximately under the arch.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Your balance should not be on the balls of your foot, but right under the tibia, approximately under the arch.

Yes. Under the tibia. Which is not in the middle of the foot but at the back of the arch.

Here's are images with the tibia tilted forward and ankle dorsiflexed as it should be when skiing.

 

[KJL]

Your balance should not be on the balls of your foot, but right under the tibia, approximately under the arch.

Yes. Under the tibia. Which is not in the middle of the foot but at the back of the arch.

View attachment 227868
Here's are images with the tibia tilted forward and ankle dorsiflexed as it should be when skiing.

View attachment 227869

Aha, that's explains why my heel should never threaten to lift, and also that "being forward" means "also feeling pressure under the balls of your feet" — not "only feeling pressure under the balls of your feet".

In the past, with "crushing shins" sending pressure only to my heels (so that I can lift my forefoot at will), I was clearly too far back.

But today, where I can still feel pressure under my heel but also have the balls of my feet also planted on the footbed, I understand now the actual balance point is under the tibia.

Boy, the difference in balance point is mere centimeters when moving from heel to tibia, isn't it?