I Reduced My Boot's Forward Lean and Finally Can Get Forward

[KJL]

@LiquidFeet and @Rod9301 Going a bit off-track now, but may I ask: in a carved bottom half of the turn, where is the balance point when we're told to "allow our feet to move forward" to get our balance point rearwards?

 

[Noodler]

@LiquidFeet and @Rod9301 Going a bit off-track now, but may I ask: in a carved bottom half of the turn, where is the balance point when we're told to "allow our feet to move forward" to get our balance point rearwards?

Allowing the skis/feet to move forward at the end of the turn is a fairly advanced skill that most skiers either lack the technique or the strength to recover from fast enough when entering the new turn. I recommend you leave this idea alone for a while until you can ski in balance with sufficient forward pressure ALL the time. Then revisit this.

So this begs the question, do you know how to get forward on skis? What movement(s) are you making to get forward and stay forward?

 

[Jjmd]

Trying to “milk” narrow skis on runouts and gentle terrain can give enhanced feedback on what the feet are doing in relation to the ankle. It is a nuanced activity that when I try to teach or coach it, the results vary.

 

[James]

Having a hard time seeing how one “crushes their shins” in the boot and weights their heels. Because you’re getting thrown back?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet and @Rod9301 Going a bit off-track now, but may I ask: in a carved bottom half of the turn, where is the balance point when we're told to "allow our feet to move forward" to get our balance point rearwards?

I bring my feet back up under me after the fall line. This composes the bottom half of the turn. As I do this, my feet end up under me and I "dive" (topple; words words words) downhill of my feet, into the next turn.

It's a chicken-or-the-egg situation. Do I move my feet back up behind me, or my CoM down below my feet? Do I passively end up being "upside down" on the trail, or am I doing that actively? Does it matter? Are they the same?

....As I bring my feet back up under me after the fall line, my CoM ends up downhill of my feet. I can give that movement some oomph (dive) or just let it happen (topple). Both work.

As the CoM gets downhill of the feet, the feet keep going in the direction they are pointed. This means they shoot outward relative to my CoM. ... relative to "me." This is the sideways figure eight we see in diagrams sometimes, where the paths of the CoM and BoS cross.

Since the skis go outward while I'm moving inside, they tip up on edge. This tipping is inevitable given the relationship of the CoM to the BoS.

So the tipped-up-on-edge skis bend and turn. They go downhill and around. My CoM and BoS meet up somewhere in there, more or less at the fall line. It all happens so fast.

Honestly I'm not paying attention to underfoot pressure as that whole skis-out-and-around business happens. I'm enjoying the sensations. Then I bring my feet back up under me and repeat on the other side for more thrills.

Dunno if this matches anyone else's experience. Many skiers here ski better than me.

 

[KJL]

Allowing the skis/feet to move forward at the end of the turn is a fairly advanced skill that most skiers either lack the technique or the strength to recover from fast enough when entering the new turn. I recommend you leave this idea alone for a while until you can ski in balance with sufficient forward pressure ALL the time. Then revisit this.

So this begs the question, do you know how to get forward on skis? What movement(s) are you making to get forward and stay forward?

Indeed, even getting centered at the fall line is a strange sensation, never mind getting back at the end. This is why I ask!

I can indeed ski with definitely forward pressure all the time, basically establishing a forward position with a stork turn (lifting the tail of my downhill ski, aka the first half of the Phantom Move) and then holding that knee-bent, boot tongue touching, ball-of-foot pressure throughout.

I wish I had video of this, but imagine a rounded turn where the tails drift the whole time. Works on any slope!

The only way I can confirm this is via Carv's Fore:Aft monitor, which returns the average balance point throughout a turn, on a scale of 0-100 (practically, 20-80).

For the above turns, the Fore:Aft monitor is pegged around 70, implying a very forward average position throughout the turn.

In contrast, the same monitor reports roughly an average balance of 50 for a carved turn, which is expected for that style.

 

[KJL]

I bring my feet back up under me after the fall line. This composes the bottom half of the turn. As I do this, my feet end up under me and I "dive" (topple; words words words) downhill of my feet, into the next turn.

It's a chicken-or-the-egg situation. Do I move my feet, or my CoM? Do I passively end up bing "upside down" on the trail, or am I doing that actively? Does it matter? Are they the same?

....As my feet come back up under me, my CoM ends up downhill of my feet. I can give that movement some oomph or just let it happen. Both work.

As the CoM moves downhill of the feet, the feet keep going in the direction they are pointed. This means they shoot outward relative to my CoM. Relative to "me."

Since they go outward while I'm inside, they tip up on edge. It's inevitable given the relationship of the CoM to the BoS.

So the tipped up on edge skis bend and turn; they go downhill and around. My CoM and BoS meet up somewhere in there, more or less at the fall line. It all happens so fast.

Honestly I'm not paying attention to underfoot pressure as that whole out-and-around business happens. I'm enjoying the sensations. Then I bring my feet back up under me and repeat for more thrills.

Dunno if this matches anyone else's experience. Many skiers here ski better than me.

Thank you for the entire description, including the last bit where you don't pay attention to underfoot balance.

The very first line clears it up for me, especially.

Thanks again.

 

[KJL]

Having a hard time seeing how one “crushes their shins” in the boot and weights their heels. Because you’re getting thrown back?

Your not alone. No instructor I've ever had warned me about this, and only advised me to "keep a dollar bill pressed against the tongue".

The problem — perhaps especially with those with a lot of ankle flexibility — is that it is easy to lean against the shin, stand on the heel, and lift the entire forefoot off the boot.

In other words, you support yourself only on the tongue and on your heels.

It's pretty precarious, obviously, but until I started using Carv I didn't realize I was doing it all wrong.

Watching the Carv sensors light the heel up when I compressed the boot tongue was one of the biggest I've experienced in this sport. The Carv forum is littered with similar experiences.

 

[James]

Your not alone. No instructor I've ever had warned me about this, and only advised me to "keep a dollar bill pressed against the tongue".

The problem — perhaps especially with those with a lot of ankle flexibility — is that it is easy to lean against the shin, stand on the heel, and lift the entire forefoot off the boot.

In other words, you support yourself only on the tongue and on your heels.

It's pretty precarious, obviously, but until I started using Carv I didn't realize I was doing it all wrong.

Watching the Carv sensors light the heel up when I compressed the boot tongue was one of the biggest I've experienced in this sport. The Carv forum is littered with similar experiences.

I re-read your first post and you were sitting back according to you and an outside observer. Mystery solved I guess.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....For the above turns, the Fore:Aft monitor is pegged around 70, implying a very forward average position throughout the turn.

In contrast, the same monitor reports roughly an average balance of 50 for a carved turn, which is expected for that style.

Try lifting the whole inside ski instead of just the tail. Keep it parallel to the snow. You may get closer to 50 on that monitor and get a carved turn instead of one where the tails are skidding around.

 

[Vestirse]

The problem — perhaps especially with those with a lot of ankle flexibility — is that it is easy to lean against the shin, stand on the heel, and lift the entire forefoot off the boot.

I've been reading this thread with interest since a lot of the issues you experienced, I have too. I am hyper flexible like you and also ended up reducing my boot lean to help. I really relate to the above statement as well and it was not until this season that I realized what I've been doing wrong - way too heel dominant and that was putting me in the backseat. My revelation was sans carv, but discussions like this helped me see the light!

 

[Tom K.]

I'd argue that with modern skis, you should never be seeking to "crush" your shins into the front of the boot.

It's so much more a lateral sport than it was back in the days of straight skis.

 

[KJL]

Try lifting the whole inside ski instead of just the tail. Keep it parallel to the snow. You may get closer to 50 on that monitor and get a carved turn instead of one where the tails are skidding around.

Thanks!

By coincidence, I was just experimenting this past weekend with evenly-lifted inside ski, instead of the usual javelin/stork-like turn with tip-low/tail-high.

The resulting more centered balance seemed to result in dramatically improved bite after the fall line that had been the source of a lack of confidence for carved turns, especially on recent Northeast hardpack.

On an unrelated note, lifting the ski clear of the snow also stops me from over-edging the start of my turns. I realized I create my A-frame right at turn initiation ....

Thanks again.

 

[KJL]

I re-read your first post and you were sitting back according to you and an outside observer. Mystery solved I guess.

Actually, embarrassingly I didn't realize it in myself. I saw it in a friend I was skiing with ... then my young daughter said: "Baba, you ski sitting down as well!"

I'm telling you, from the mouth of babes ....

That one criticism from an unexpected source changed a lot of things these past few weeks!

 

[KJL]

I've been reading this thread with interest since a lot of the issues you experienced, I have too. I am hyper flexible like you and also ended up reducing my boot lean to help. I really relate to the above statement as well and it was not until this season that I realized what I've been doing wrong - way too heel dominant and that was putting me in the backseat. My revelation was sans carv, but discussions like this helped me see the light!

Cool beans! Have you tried anything else to help with relearning how to get forward?

Many Carv users who can clearly see the evidence they're standing on their heels (when crushing their shins into the tongues of their boots) think Carv is measuring something wrong.

The FB group sets them straight right quick.

Objective measurements can be quite the bucket of cold water.

 

[Vestirse]

Cool beans! Have you tried anything else to help with relearning how to get forward?

Many Carv users who can clearly see the evidence they're standing on their heels (when crushing their shins into the tongues of their boots) think Carv is measuring something wrong.

The FB group sets them straight right quick.

Objective measurements can be quite the bucket of cold water.

Open hip! When I'm sitting on my heels, I always tended to conversely bend at the hip in an attempt to get "forward". So along with not digging my heels in, I remind myself to open up my hip joint too to get forward for real. Try it out!

Honestly, the improvement was drastic and immediate because sitting backseat was both getting my tails stuck in moguls and 3D snow and then on steeps causing my skis to get ahead of me so I would speed up and have trouble getting my tips adequately uphill to slow me down. All of that equaled a loss of control. Realizing what I was doing wrong was an epiphany and getting that control back was so confidence inspiring.

 

[KJL]

Open hip! When I'm sitting on my heels, I always tended to conversely bend at the hip in an attempt to get "forward". So along with not digging my heels in, I remind myself to open up my hip joint too to get forward for real. Try it out!

Honestly, the improvement was drastic and immediate because sitting backseat was both getting my tails stuck in moguls and 3D snow and then on steeps causing my skis to get ahead of me so I would speed up and have trouble getting my tips adequately uphill to slow me down. All of that equaled a loss of control. Realizing what I was doing wrong was an epiphany and getting that control back was so confidence inspiring.

Oh, yes! I tried opening my hips back when my boots had all the extra forward lean engaged, and while it worked it never worked permanently.

Removing the boots' forward lean made my hips open naturally (and my butt less sticky-outy), just from the more upright stance.

But I never went back to exploring the "openness" of my hips — thanks for the reminder to try it again!

 

[Noodler]

@KJL and @Vestirse - the correct "joints thought" is to close the ankles and open the knees to help get your upper body forward. I don't think I've ever seen anyone discuss the "open hip" thought in the context of fore/aft management. "Open hip" is usually a term reserved for counteraction discussion.

That said, the proper way to get forward and manage your fore/aft is using foot pullback. We have quite a few threads here discussing foot pullback and fore/aft management on SkiTalk. Check them out.

 

[James]

All that is tail wags dog. If you have way too much forward lean for you, your hips will go back and you will be sitting back.
All these tips and thoughts can’t counteract the body seeking stability.

 

[Vestirse]

@KJL and @Vestirse - the correct "joints thought" is to close the ankles and open the knees to help get your upper body forward. I don't think I've ever seen anyone discuss the "open hip" thought in the context of fore/aft management. "Open hip" is usually a term reserved for counteraction discussion.

That said, the proper way to get forward and manage your fore/aft is using foot pullback. We have quite a few threads here discussing foot pullback and fore/aft management on SkiTalk. Check them out.

I don't disagree with anything you've said.

Caveat, I am just going on past discussions here and on other forums that I've read, but a particular problem of backseat skiers like myself is extreme crouching to get forward to counteract how much they sit back. So maybe "more open hip" is more accurate or "unlocking your hips". For me, that extreme crouch became ingrained as I skied for so long backseat, and opening up of that hip joint was a key to becoming better able to handle the fore and aft.

"Foot pullback" is a different part of the equation and it is an issue for getting forward properly too. For me and @KJL we were just sitting on our heels while doing the foot pullback, instead of using the entire foot - which we touch on here. For us, the foot pullback description wasn't enough, which is why I think @KJL asked about foot position in different parts of the turn.