Importance of skier 'weight' category with new ski purchase

[DoryBreaux]

I would argue that weight is more objective than height when it comes to ski purchasing. It puts you at a baseline length, and then you can move up or down a size depending on what you want the ski to do. This is not a hard and fast rule. Am I going to sell a 6'6" 170lb dude a 170cm if he wants it to be "easy" to ski or "nimble"? Probably not, unless he's very new to the sport. At that height, he'll have a lot of leverage over a ski. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I ignore anything that we "traditionally" did to size skis and do whatever I want. Or whatever the customer wants.
But I'm also the guy who thinks that, with the exception of SL, no ski should be shorter than my hairline. And yes, as it recedes, the skis get longer

 

[DanoT]

So a stiffer ski that is bent is going to want to return to its un-flexed normal condition more "violently" than a softer ski.

While the above is true, I find that as a heavy guy when on a soft ski I am going to create a greater flexion than on a stiff ski and a resultant greater rebound with the soft ski as well. This is fine in deep powder but doesn't work well for me on other conditions.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

As a 135 pounder I can tell you that skier weight is hugely important. In fact the Nordica Enforcer 100 @ 177 cm was for me the classic example of a ski I could only bend at supersonic speeds. Interestingly I get along just fine with the Enforcer 88 @ 172 cm.

As someone basically your size (if anything a touch lighter), I can't really agree with this. I ski Enforcer 93s in 177 as my daily driver and have never felt like I had trouble bending them. They actually feel a little more pliant compared to the 173 Bonafides they replaced. I can't say I recommend that sizing for everyone, do what works for you. But I have yet to encounter a ski I felt like I couldn't flex. And while I generally ski at a decent click, I'm not the fastest skier on the mountain either.

I have a different view regarding the skier weight consideration. I don't look at it from the perspective of being able to "flex" the ski, but rather how much ski "rebound" I'm willing to manage in the turn. When skiers state that they can't flex a ski when skiing that's typically more about technique than their weight. Even a WC FIS level ski will bend under low skier weight just by standing on the ski.
...
I mention all this because of course a skier will want to match their skiing preferences to the ski's flex stiffness, but that doesn't mean that there's only a small range of flexes that "match" the skier. ... Think about how you ski and what you want out of the ski and don't get caught up in the idea that you can't bend a ski or that you must match your weight to the ski (or it's length). It just doesn't work that way in my experience.

I think this is the key insight. It may be different on the other end of the spectrum. I wouldn't be surprised if heavier, stronger guys can completely overpower certain skis. I've always been on the light side and never really experienced that. But all I can say is that, as probably the lightest adult male I know, I have yet to find a ski I couldn't flex. And I don't ski the shortest lengths either. I'm not saying this to be macho or anything, rather just to point out that I don't think being completely unable to flex skis makes sense.

I'm generally hesitant to make World Cup comparisons because those people aren't mortal. But take the case of Tessa Worely, a 5'2", 126 lb female. She skis longer, stiffer skis than most 250 lb dudes ever will, and she absolutely rips on them. There's a substantial technical component involved in these decisions, it's not just weight.

 

[Noodler]

While the above is true, I find that as a heavy guy when on a soft ski I am going to create a greater flexion than on a stiff ski and a resultant greater rebound with the soft ski as well. This is fine in deep powder but doesn't work well for me on other conditions.

How are you creating greater flexion? Keep in mind the following:

 

[DanoT]

How are you creating greater flexion? Keep in mind the following:

I am not a science or tech guy so my take on the above video may be flawed but I note that the ski used in the demonstration is a SL ski and a different softer ski could produce different results. Also the weight was not applied with any force behind it and so I question how well the experiment translates to real world actual skiing.

 

[ScottB]

That is an interesting video. I have wondered about bending a ski on snow, or more specifically boilerplate. Does the ski flex until the middle contacts the snow and then stop bending, or does it keep bending and the middle of the ski slides across the snow after contact. I believe it keeps bending.

 

[Noodler]

I am not a science or tech guy so my take on the above video may be flawed but I note that the ski used in the demonstration is a SL ski and a different softer ski could produce different results. Also the weight was not applied with any force behind it and so I question how well the experiment translates to real world actual skiing.

The reason I posted the video was to provide a very clear visual for how a ski bends into an arc and meets with the snow surface. Any ski can only bend so far before it hits the surface. It doesn't matter the stiffness of the ski. What matters is your edge angle. If you want a ski to bend further you must tip it further. Higher edge angle = more bend = tighter turning radius.

I think what you may be referring to is that a deeper bend of a soft ski may provide more rebound than a less bent stiffer ski because the ski was pushed further to its limits. I'll just say that there is potential in that thought and something I need to give further consideration to.

 

[Noodler]

That is an interesting video. I have wondered about bending a ski on snow, or more specifically boilerplate. Does the ski flex until the middle contacts the snow and then stop bending, or does it keep bending and the middle of the ski slides across the snow after contact. I believe it keeps bending.

I'm not following on how it keeps bending. Once the middle of the ski hits the snow, the only way for it to bend further is for the ski to be tipped on edge further. That's one of the critical takeaways from the video.

 

[ScottB]

Also the weight was not applied with any force behind it and so I question how well the experiment translates to real world actual skiing.

The weights are the force. They should be a 150 lb skier plus some additional g force. The video weight was very low, but that is all it takes to decamber a ski. What it doesn't show is what starts happening when skier weights (forces) are applied

 

[François Pugh]

Too complicated to get into right now, but I have time to say that the problem isn't so much that a skier doesn't have the weight to bend the ski at reasonable speeds; it's that ski's resistance to being bent doesn't encourage the learner to bend it, by just requiring that extra bit of effort to tip the skis. Also lighter skiers have less down force keeping the tips and tails gripping as the bend they ski into a carve, where as heavier skiers will be bending those light skis into a bigger steering angle that the ski possibly can't hold (Iight skiers can also fold a ski like that and have it slide instead of turn at a critical time if they hammer it expecting it to turn them).
More detail later. Gotta get my laundry, eat and go patrol.

 

[ScottB]

I'm not following on how it keeps bending. Once the middle of the ski hits the snow, the only way for it to bend further is for the ski to be tipped on edge further. That's one of the critical takeaways from the video.

I realize that is how you view it, but I believe that is not true and I suggest you give it some thought. I can easily slide my skis on snow with the edges in full contact, that defies your assumption. We need a deeper understanding of edge grip versus slip, especially along the entire length of the ski. I know from experience I can make a tighter turn at the same edge angle by putting more downforce on my ski, how is that possible with your model? It's more complex and I don't claim to have an explaination. Keep in mind I weigh 250 lbs and how much weight did it take in the video to decamber the ski? I think it was less than 50 lbs

If you are only loading the ski up to its decamber load, I agree with your model. If you load it a lot more, grip slip and twist come into play and I expect change the model

 

[Noodler]

I realize that is how you view it, but I believe that is not true and I suggest you give it some thought. I can easily slide my skis on snow with the edges in full contact, that defies your assumption. We need a deeper understanding of edge grip versus slip, especially along the entire length of the ski. I know from experience I can make a tighter turn at the same edge angle by putting more downforce on my ski, how is that possible with your model? It's more complex and I don't claim to have an explaination. Keep in mind I weigh 250 lbs and how much weight did it take in the video to decamber the ski? I think it was less than 50 lbs

If you are only loading the ski up to its decamber load, I agree with your model. If you load it a lot more, grip slip and twist come into play and I expect change the model

You can't "load it more" by pushing it harder in the middle of the ski. No one is strong enough to compress the snow surface merely by pushing harder. What you may be doing is levering the front half of the ski more by pressuring the tips more than the tails. However, that alone will not result in a tighter turn without the required tipping angle to go along with it. I know it's what you "think" is happening, but it's simply not physically possible to tighten the turn radius by only pushing harder on the skis (once they're already in full contact with the snow surface).

 

[anders_nor]

high edge angle + speed + coming down off a roller to flatter or similar "abrubt" change is where I have most skis crap out on

 

[HardDaysNight]

Any ski can only bend so far before it hits the surface. It doesn't matter the stiffness of the ski. What matters is your edge angle. If you want a ski to bend further you must tip it further. Higher edge angle = more bend = tighter turning radius.

Quoted in the hope that this is read again by those who can’t bend their skis. It’s not mass, it’s skill!

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Honestly I think the issue with talking about this on this forum is that most of us are dorks who've experimented a bit with skis, read a lot, and generally know that you have to take a ski's on-paper characteristics with a grain of salt. I'm sure that there's plenty of advanced bigger skiers who have a soft playful ski in their quiver for when it's appropriate, and as probably one of the smallest people on this forum, I know that I have some burly skis that maybe don't match my size range on paper all that well.

I think the issue though is that we assume that this sort of technical how-does-a-ski-bend stuff is intuitive for entry level skiers, and that people will fill in the gaps. In my experience, they really don't. The fact that we don't really teach beginners to consider their weight when choosing a ski, and that that info often isn't readily provided by manufacturers, really seems to leave behind a lot of one-ski-quiver skiers and a lot of intermediates that just need one ski that's going to be forgiving of mistakes in a reasonable range of situations.

 

[François Pugh]

I realize that is how you view it, but I believe that is not true and I suggest you give it some thought. I can easily slide my skis on snow with the edges in full contact, that defies your assumption. We need a deeper understanding of edge grip versus slip, especially along the entire length of the ski. I know from experience I can make a tighter turn at the same edge angle by putting more downforce on my ski, how is that possible with your model? It's more complex and I don't claim to have an explaination. Keep in mind I weigh 250 lbs and how much weight did it take in the video to decamber the ski? I think it was less than 50 lbs

If you are only loading the ski up to its decamber load, I agree with your model. If you load it a lot more, grip slip and twist come into play and I expect change the model

Yes you can easily slide those skis sideways, but the tips are sliding too. What you can also do is have the skis moving forwards and sideways, with the direction of travel of the tip more angled to the tip's edge than the under-boot portion is angled to its edge (because the ski is bent to the point (and only to the point) where the entire edge is touching the hardpack/boiler plate.

 

[ScottB]

You can't "load it more" by pushing it harder in the middle of the ski. No one is strong enough to compress the snow surface merely by pushing harder. What you may be doing is levering the front half of the ski more by pressuring the tips more than the tails. However, that alone will not result in a tighter turn without the required tipping angle to go along with it. I know it's what you "think" is happening, but it's simply not physically possible to tighten the turn radius by only pushing harder on the skis (once they're already in full contact with the snow surface).

The key to how I understand it and what you are saying is your last sentence. Once the edge in the middle of the ski is set into the snow surface I agree the bend is at its max. I believe before the middle of the ski's edge is set, it can slide on the snow while touching it and bend more. the tips and trails are set and do not slide. Similar to the bend in the video with the ski supported at each end. It's a dynamic movement. I question that once the middle edge contacts the snow it instantly sets itself. I am not saying it bend another foot, but maybe a couple of inches.

In softer snow, I have had the snow give way under my ski, it's pretty common for me when I am on slalom skis. It's usually under the tail. I am 250 lbs. The snow is compressing and being clived. That maybe different than what you are referring to.

 

[François Pugh]

I have experience skiing a wide range of skis of varying stiffness and turn radius. I've skied old SG skis with side-cut radius of ~70 m with a weight of 135 lbs, and Fischer WC SCs with weight ranging from 180 lbs to 120 lbs (and now back up to 140 lbs), other more flexible recreational skis with a weight ranging from 120 lbs to 160 lbs.

The skis job is to transfer weight from under-foot to the snow at all points along the ski, not just under foot. Sure it doesn't take a whole lot of force to bend a ski such that its edge makes full contact with a hard surface, but it requires enough force holding that edge down at the tips for the tips to grip on that surface. If the ski is too flexible along its length, the force will all be transmitted close to the boot, and the tips won't have any of it. If the ski is too flexible for the turning force needed the ski will twist along its edge and slip. If the ski is too stiff for the force applied, the centre of the ski won't have enough downforce because the tips and tails have too much, due to more force needed at the tip and tail to bend the ski.

On, or rather in, soft snow a too soft ski won't bend enough to give you the curve you want when you tip it and compress the snow under it; a too soft ski will bend too much. The amount of bending you get out of the ski also depends on the surface areas of the tip, tail and centre. These area ratios and stiffness, and forces applied all have to match up, not an easy design task.

Comparing my SC to a much softer ski of the same shape, it is much easier to make tighter turns with the softer ski, until you're going too fast for that ski to hold the turn. For the vast majority of skiers, that speed isn't the speed they ski at.

 

[Noodler]

The key to how I understand it and what you are saying is your last sentence. Once the edge in the middle of the ski is set into the snow surface I agree the bend is at its max. I believe before the middle of the ski's edge is set, it can slide on the snow while touching it and bend more. the tips and trails are set and do not slide. Similar to the bend in the video with the ski supported at each end. It's a dynamic movement. I question that once the middle edge contacts the snow it instantly sets itself. I am not saying it bend another foot, but maybe a couple of inches.

In softer snow, I have had the snow give way under my ski, it's pretty common for me when I am on slalom skis. It's usually under the tail. I am 250 lbs. The snow is compressing and being clived. That maybe different than what you are referring to.

Yep, I think you generally have it correct. The important takeaway that I was hoping to convey to all skiers is that in order to bend a ski more you have to tip it more. Simple as that. There is no "pushing" on a ski to bend it. In fact, when skiers think that pushing works, it actually works against them when it comes to getting higher edge angles and better edge hold. Stop pushing on your skis and start balancing and tipping. Skis work beautifully when you understand how to operate them.

 

[François Pugh]

You can make the tips grip more than the centre if you shift your weight forward, but then the tails also slip more. Trying to keep it equally weighted, the geometry has the tips sliding if the centre won't hold in my experience.