In defence of narrow skis

[crgildart]

^^^^But the objective is to survive the skiing and look cool in the lift line!

 

[Don in Morrison]

... look cool in the lift line!

Got it nailed. Vintage red, white and blue K2 Shorts or hart ballets work every time.

 

[Eleeski]

It's very easy to confuse static loads with dynamic loads. Standing still on a stair is nothing like powering a turn. With a little dynamic knee bend you can exceed the couple centimeters of cantilever from the ski edge. Hopefully you can bend your knees? And hopefully your ski boots have enough support so the side of your foot isn't loaded. The simplistic stick figure modeling is misleading.

I watched the Cracked Ice races on TV where they skated down a course. Entertaining but I'm not ready to exchange my skis for skates - even if it's icy. 2mm is just too narrow!

Eric

 

[cantunamunch]

not to mention the speed skaters----a 2mm waist is a lot better in the rink. (picture trying to skate on something wide)
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Have done - remember twin blade kiddie skates? Jan Heine recently did a one-off with tilting blades. Somewhat congruent observations with @Eleeski above.

It's very easy to confuse static loads with dynamic loads. Standing still on a stair is nothing like powering a turn.

Exactly ... so the trick is to stop "powering" turns from the lower limbs and do the major moves with upper body balance shifts. This applies to skating also.

I watched the Cracked Ice races on TV where they skated down a course. Entertaining but I'm not ready to exchange my skis for skates - even if it's icy. 2mm is just too narrow!

Eric

Of all the people on this forum I think you could have fun on a really narrow waisted ski. Part of what you're seeing in the Cracked Ice races is that they're on unstable hockey skates - which goes back to your turn design point. It's made for TV so they put them on the wobbliest, turniest skates they can. If they had put them on nordic skater blades it would be a completely different show - and not remotely clownish enough for TV.

 

[crgildart]

https://skimoves.me/author/skikinetics/page/14/

 

[Lorenzzo]

Um, because only skiers on wide skis have ever had this happen to them. Nothing to do with physiology, genetics, or any other of a million reasons that there are 600,000 knee replacements every year in the US alone.

I had no idea there were that many people on wide skis.

 

[trailtrimmer]

Have done - remember twin blade kiddie skates? Jan Heine recently did a one-off with tilting blades. Somewhat congruent observations with @Eleeski above.



Exactly ... so the trick is to stop "powering" turns from the lower limbs and do the major moves with upper body balance shifts. This applies to skating also.

.

Even if you turn entirely from your hips, the carving edge of the ski is still not under your foot creating loads your anatomy is not designed for. The wider the ski, the more exacerbated the force.

Technique and balancing pressure across both skis might change the dynamic, but it doesn't eliminate it. A narrower ski moves that force under foot reducing the amount of leverage generated and therefore how much force is needed to keep the ski on edge.

Wide skis on hardpack is like using a cheater bar on a stuck lug or axle nut.

 

[Eleeski]

@crgildart The backpack is causing the problem.

Stick figures aren't realistic.

Widen your carving stance and change everything.

Do monoskis hurt the knees more?

@cantunamunch I love a ski that turns quickly and easily. Not all narrow skis do and not all wide skis don't.

Eric

 

[OldJeep]

@crgildart The backpack is causing the problem.

Do monoskis hurt the knees more?


Eric

Yes, but for different reasons

 

[Eleeski]

@trailtrimmer I'm not sure we anatomically evolved to ski. (Although there is that cave drawing of a Neanderthal hucking a cliff). To claim that a small cantilever load creates a massive overload compared to the loads from a narrow ski doesn't make sense. Especially when other factors like length and weight can generate higher loads.

Skiing is a physically demanding sport. Conditions, technique and equipment affect the physical loads. Singling out one small variable, width, loses sight of the big picture. Do some quad tightener exercises to build some knee strength so you don't need the excuse.

Eric

 

[Monique]

The article also suggests that the use of risers/lifts would give a mechanical advantage that would help lesson stress on the knees, and perhaps even enhance performance. Probably not an option that’s has any commercial backing?

I think it's more of a preference thing. People tend to get wide skis for soft snow (even if they then see soft snow about as often as they see Bigfoot). On soft snow, and I seem to recall some discussions about this, being closer to the ski seems to be preferred. I don't recall the explanations.

Google is not helping me find any evidence in support of this.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Added a pair of mid waist Faction Dictator 105's to the mix this year. My Renoun Endurance 98's are my narrow daily driver. Katana V-werks at 112 are the powder and western ski. Over 1000 days on wide skis without any knee pain yet. Let me rack up another couple thousand days on wide boards and I will give my personal opinion on this quite intriguing subject.

Stats- 58yo, 260 Lbs daily Killington skier
(Pic was taken last Friday on Superstar)

 

[crgildart]

Of all things in the universal law world, nothing impacts skiing and kinesioligy more than physics. Physics is law, everything else is just opinion. Ski width and knee stress is simple leverage. Choke up on a prybar and try to use it even just an inch shorter. Difference is pretty noticeable. Same principles apply to pushing your ski edge out an inch on either side.. On hard snow more than soft though obviously..

 

[Monique]

Of all things in the universal law world, nothing impacts skiing and kinesioligy more than physics. Physics is law, everything else is just opinion. Ski width and knee stress is simple leverage. Choke up on a prybar and try to use it even just an inch shorter. Difference is pretty noticeable. Same principles apply to pushing your ski edge out an inch on either side.. On hard snow more than soft though obviously..

But they do look cooler, with more room for artwork ...


I don't think anyone disagrees that skiing fat skis adds stress. Of course, skiing in general is pretty stressful on the body, what with the forces, the potential for impact, and the extreme temps. Probably we should all just stay home and walk around the neighborhood more. My personal trainer says that walking is the best exercise, period.

If anyone is skiing the way they pry up a wooden board, they should go get lessons, stat!

Did I mention I fully support your decision (if it's your decision - I've lost track and frankly don't care what other people have on their feet) to ski skinny skis? If they feel better on your knees, that's excellent!

What I don't understand, though, is why this topic keeps coming up and why narrow skis need to be defended in the first place. I can understand it if the narrow ski population feels that there is insufficient innovation and product being pumped out for skinny ski lovers. Otherwise, it's just another helmet thread.

 

[PTskier]

There is more involved than just the width of the skis. The better narrow skis I've had were made for hard snow and damped the vibrations, less chatter, much better than the wide skis I've had. Chatter, on my bad knee, is like a jack hammer hitting the sore parts. The more chatter, the more pain. I'm not totally in love with the Renoun Z-90 skis, but they make a huge improvement on hard pack for my bad knee. They do exactly what they advertise. They have better damping than I could have imagined. Modest damping when slow or on soft snow, and great damping on noisy snow. (I'd like more rebound out of the skis when I release the turn, but that's just me, and it may be impossible with the Renoun HDT damping.) I'd have gotten the Z-77, except Phil said that they do nothing better than the Z-90 and some things not as well. Believe da' Pug!

Why ski wide skis if flotation isn't a consideration?

 

[slowrider]

not to mention the speed skaters----a 2mm waist is a lot better in the rink. (picture trying to skate on something wide)

got to say, it is amusing to be out on a full cambered race ski with a 68 mm waist (found new on ebay for $125) on a day of solid ice, watching people skid and flap down the mountain on some pair of $800 powder skis.

It wouldn't be so silly if they could at least rail a turn on the flappers.

 

[François Pugh]

Tremblant has a greater vertical than Mt. Washington. Mt Washington is listed at 1800 vertical feet but the main chair from the lodge is 1200 vertical with another 600 vertical of beginner and low intermediate terrain below the lodge. The Outback area is, I think, a 1000 vertical feet,with flats. Bring your fat skis for dealing with the heavy, sometimes deep, sometimes rain soaked, snow

Tremblant has some wonderfully long beginner runs, and some intermediate runs they label black, but there is nothing more than half as steep at Tremblant as the steeper runs at Mt. Washington BC. I've skied both a couple of days apart.

 

[François Pugh]

Hmm... sounds like you're saying moguls are bad. "In defense of narrow skis"..... it will allow for quicker turns thru those moguls.

I think I can enjoy the moguls now that I've expanded my skiing horizons to more than beautifully carved high speed SG turns, but moguls are suited for slower speed short radius turns, and not for a makeshift DH. Moguls are a different kind of fun, and not quite so thrilling, unless you are willing to pound through them at SG to DH speeds. I've decided I'm too old and decrepit for much of that. I hope they left me some smooth steep lines.

 

[François Pugh]

You want an illustration? Grab a two foot long 1 x 4 inch board near one end. Place that end of the board flat against a door frame and push in a direction that would have the board move through the door opening if it were not caught by the door frame WHILE keeping it from tilting the other end through the door frame.

Now do it again with your hand closer to the other end.

Notice how much more torque the door frame puts on the board when your hand is farther away from the edge.
It's the same thing when you try to keep your ski at an angle with the snow at the edge farther from your foot.

 

[crgildart]

^^^How did you do that without dislocating your elbow???