Is your equipment helping or hindering your Fore/Aft balance?

MissySki

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Very, very wise idea!
My bootfitter is a pedorthist. He doesn’t sell boots himself. So, on an appointment, he does an evaluation, then recommends 2-3 boots. The customer orders the boots from somewhere where they can be returned and brings them in to the next appointment. It’s not as streamlined, but it works.

Mine is a pedorthist too. I originally sought him out because of that, when I was having a lot of pain in my boots years ago. Seems like such a great skillset for a bootfitter to have.
 

LiquidFeet

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Actually, no he didn't.


I see the names of a lot of prominent boot fitters in this thread, and with the exception of Bud who started it, none of them are responding.

This is why.

the artist/scientist formerly known as pliny the elder
@pliny the elder. I think if you tell us what you know about this, we will believe you and benefit from your knowledge.

On an online forum there will always be people speaking up with differing amounts of experience and different perspectives. That doesn't mean that those in the know, like you, are not listened to and heard. It's not disrespect. It's just a different kind of audience.
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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@pliny the elder. I think if you tell us what you know about this, we will believe you and benefit from your knowledge.

On an online forum there will always be people speaking up with differing amounts of experience and different perspectives. That doesn't mean that those in the know, like you, are not listened to and heard. It's not disrespect. It's just a different kind of audience.
Plus, you can't expect to be respected for who you are unless you actually say who your are. That was supposed to be part of what made this site better than some others. The in crowd games get old quickly for those of us who aren't part of the in crowd.
 

elemmac

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I am working with a bootfitter who is collecting data on skiers and instructors. The preliminary data suggests that many higher level skiers have minimal pronation. Additionally, the more pronation suggests higher incidence of injury.
This is interesting…and as a science nerd that loves data, I’d be very interested in seeing what data he collects and conclusions he draws from that experience…if he ever shares this data/information publicly, please post!

@pliny the elder. I think if you tell us what you know about this, we will believe you and benefit from your knowledge.

On an online forum there will always be people speaking up with differing amounts of experience and different perspectives. That doesn't mean that those in the know, like you, are not listened to and heard. It's not disrespect. It's just a different kind of audience.
Very well said.
 

Philpug

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On an online forum there will always be people speaking up with differing amounts of experience and different perspectives.
Plus, you can't expect to be respected for who you are unless you actually say who your are.
Some people prefer to have a level on anonymity, while we also would like to have a higher level of transparency and have every member go by their actual names, we have to respect and meet each member at their level of comfort.
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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Some people prefer to have a level on anonymity, while we also would like to have a higher level of transparency and have every member go by their actual names, we have to respect and meet each member at their level of comfort.
Sure. But then those people can't ask for respect based on who they are in real life. You can't have it both ways.
 

Philpug

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Sure. But then those people can't ask for respect based on who they are in real life. You can't have it both ways.
Respect is earned and not demanded, in this case his words should earn the respect no matter who (s)he is behind the handle.
 

elemmac

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Jim Lindsay told me that most World Cup ski racers have neutral (as opposed to pronated or supinated) feet.
I know there seems to be some disagreement about whether this is true or not. But to me, it makes sense in the same way most professional runners have long legs (and I bet most of them have a pretty neutral stance too). The most elite baseball pitchers tend to be tall, lanky and have really long fingers. The fastest swimmers generally have long torsos, long arms, and large feet with tons of dorsiflexion. Certain body-types and characteristics are needed in most elite level sports, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if most World Cup skiers tend to have a neutral stance.
Anatomy is certainly an issue. I highly recommend the podcast above...
I'll definitely take a look and listen in. Thanks for pointing it out.
 

elemmac

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Mike was corrected he appologized, that should remove any questions.
I was under the impression the apology was because Jim Lindsey did not tell Mike that, not that the rest of the statement wasn't true...maybe I misunderstood.

I should have removed the "Jim Lindsey told me" part from my quote, as I was not meaning to dispute what was said by whom.
 

Wendy

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I was afraid that might be coming. Sorry.

I'm totally the same way, btw. I just couldn't figure out how to fit that fact into the pun without inviting even more heckling. And with me the pun always wins out over any social niceties. :huh:
Eh, Tony, it was good-natured heckling. ;) I knew that. Just giving it back atcha.:beercheer:
 

Mike King

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I know there seems to be some disagreement about whether this is true or not. But to me, it makes sense in the same way most professional runners have long legs (and I bet most of them have a pretty neutral stance too). The most elite baseball pitchers tend to be tall, lanky and have really long fingers. The fastest swimmers generally have long torsos, long arms, and large feet with tons of dorsiflexion. Certain body-types and characteristics are needed in most elite level sports, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if most World Cup skiers tend to have a neutral stance.

I'll definitely take a look and listen in. Thanks for pointing it out.
Evidently I did not understand or misremembered what Jim said in the clinic on boot fitting I attended. It was certainly not my intent to do so. In the future, I'll refrain from attributing a source for what formed my beliefs. My only intent was to reinforce how important proper boot fitting is to many people in being able to experience the joy of skiing and how important a competent boot fitter (of which Jim is one of the best) is to the process.

Then again, I'd also suggest that it is important to educate ski instructors on how to identify guests who require boot alignment as well as those who might benefit from it. Some education of why certain conditions lead to the need for alignment is a definite aid to that process. I'm trying to assemble that understanding and am actively looking for that education, which is what led me to post in this thread.
 

Noodler

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This was a great read (and well-timed as I'm about to fit a new set of boots).

My summary of the protocol:
  1. (Interior) Get the foot in its "happy place" inside the boot: footbed, dorsiflexion RoM accommodated (ramp angle/forward lean net angle adjustment), cuff alignment set
  2. (Exterior) Get the boot+foot/leg combination positioned correctly over the ski/binding to achieve a natural balanced position: lateral canting (sole grinding and/or shims), fore/aft adjustment (sole grinding/gas pedal and/or binding delta changes), mount position
  3. Go ski: adjust the interior and exterior boot variables as needed
Thanks @bud heishman - your early posts on Epic and those ESA trips were my first real indoctrination into this deeper concern for skiers. I remember working with the Campbell Dynamic Balancer and you planing the soles of my shells flat (I had no idea at the time that was even a concern!).

P.S. I want to add that if skiers really want to help achieve success for their own situation, I recommend that they take ownership; educate yourself and learn to communicate effectively with your fitter.
 
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pliny the elder

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@pliny the elder. I think if you tell us what you know about this, we will believe you and benefit from your knowledge.

On an online forum there will always be people speaking up with differing amounts of experience and different perspectives. That doesn't mean that those in the know, like you, are not listened to and heard. It's not disrespect. It's just a different kind of audience.

Plus, you can't expect to be respected for who you are unless you actually say who your are. That was supposed to be part of what made this site better than some others. The in crowd games get old quickly for those of us who aren't part of the in crowd.

This had nothing to do with wanting respect or wanting be listened to or wanting attention.
Its actually quite the opposite.

It certainly had nothing to do Steve, who apparently spent a lot of money on boot service and still sucked, that'll happen sometimes.

I approached Tricia and Phil about participating on the forum but only under the cloak of anonymity. They were against it. My reason being, in my experience as an industry professional, there is nothing to be gained from posting on consumer boards, unless you are trying to create attention for your business.

I'm not. This is also why you don't see very many of my peers involved in online consumer forums. Whenever, the topic has come up the most common response is " Why would I want to do that? I'm already busy and have no interest in doing something for free online that I already do all day."

All the credit to Bud and "Otto" and Matt Manser and others for their valuable contributions to the site. You have several good sources of accurate information there.

The nom de Interweb, pliny the elder, did not come from the beer (which is quite good), but rather pliny being the first to create an encyclopedic collection of his science.

I will impart one last bit of wisdom into the conversation though.

You see the words pronation and supination tossed about a lot. Pronation in particular, seems to get demonized. It is probably worth pointing out that pronation and supination are normal desirable functions of the foot and ankle. They make walking possible.

It becomes an issue when you only do one of them and not the other.

They are also integral to skiing. That is assuming you believe that skiing starts in the feet.

If you start your turns by tipping your feet, this is what happens. Everytime. The inside foot is inverted (supination) and the outside foot everts (pronation) the legs rotate, the hips move across center and the skis somehow turn.

Feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves.

pliny the elder
 

Tony S

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I approached Tricia and Phil about participating on the forum but only under the cloak of anonymity. They were against it.
Good to hear.

My reason being, in my experience as an industry professional, there is nothing to be gained from posting on consumer boards, unless you are trying to create attention for your business.
Okay, so why are you posting, then? In any event, posting as your "real life self" isn't all about what's in it for you; it's about helping to create an experience where everyone on the board can make informed decisions about how to read content, based on context. Sure, sometimes content is clearly valuable or clearly junk even without any context. (Photos often fall into this category.) But more often the poster's background is extremely helpful to know.

This had nothing to do with wanting respect or wanting be listened to ...

... I will impart one last bit of wisdom into the conversation though.
Can you see how the two statements above conflict with each other? Liquid Feet's point (and mine) is that we are going to listen to your "wisdom" in a different way if we know you are, say, Bob Gleason than if all we know is that some other people on the board with special hall passes claim that you are "somebody," but can't actually tell us who. The whole thing smacks of junior high to me. After all, we are not talking missile silos and launch codes here; we are talking about freaking feet. :rolleyes:
 

James

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Dude, just accept it. I’ve always thought that threads with specialized info should be gated and posts approved before being posted. It just avoids the current situation.

It does remind me of a story in a shop I go to. The owner of Booster Strap was in talking about the product. A racer kid was in there getting fitted. I can’t remember the exact issue, but the kid was arguing that the Booster guy was totally wrong about his own product.

Glad Pliny pointed out about pronation. People talk about it as if it’s a disease.

The footbed issue is complicated. There are many high level skiers that don’t use one.
Pretty sure Glen Plake doesn’t, as a fitter in Chamonix told me he wouldn’t ever let him make one for him.
 

LiquidFeet

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So why do professionals in the ski industry, those who know a ton about boots or technique or skis or whatever, post their expert-level information and their experience-based perspectives freely in an online forum?

Is it just to drum up additional business? Do people care if that's a reason?

If these professionals don't post, then the technical discussion portions of this forum might devolve into conversations full of suppositions made by those with lesser knowledge. The value of the discussions would drop precipitously. This is one of the reasons the PSIA forum was so unfulfilling, and why it eventually was done away with. I fought for that forum's continuation, and lost. I know the level of the discussions. IT was pathetic. Part of the reason was that the higher-ups in PSIA refused to post. Another was that the members were automatically registered by the organization with their full names. Without anonymity there was no way to hide one's lack of knowledge from peers. People just wouldn't post. They also had no moderators. Shame on them.

On the other hand, there are non-professionals with tons of experience that post valuable information here. Their contributions need to be recognized and valued. And those new to skiing who ask questions are absolutely necessary, otherwise everyone is just gossiping.

So my thinking is evolving. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the pros just left. What do others think?
 
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Wilhelmson

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Plus, you can't expect to be respected for who you are unless you actually say who your are. That was supposed to be part of what made this site better than some others. The in crowd games get old quickly for those of us who aren't part of the in crowd.
There's the in crowd and then the in crowd. Being a rec parent, I need to be careful not to be that other dumb guy. But like the revered Pun, can't avoid a little mischief now and then. And some just prefer a little anonymity.
 
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