Kids U-12 racing ski questions

[razie]

. ok - so as y'all were saying, ebb and flow... 5 years from now, we may focus on twin tips and switch skiing

It sounds like the reasons are more logistical - I don't personally agree with spending a lot of time doing big turns and I especially disagree with the term "positions" - which is exactly what I was afraid of: "park and ride". That's my story and I'm sticking with it!

IMHO, the GS turn is the one that does the most damage in the "hands" of a poorly trained tech coach... exactly because of this "park and ride" syndrome I see way too often. I may fully form my thoughts in a post at some point.

Setting 14m for 9m skis make no sense whatsoever (maybe like PS on the flats?) ! One challenge I use often is to have them do more carved turns than me, in a given corridor - me using a dinghy 18m GS ski and them on SL skis - most fail miserably, i.e. come up short and when you show them the skis you have, big a-ha moment! Works especially well at the start of the season

cheers.

 

[hbear]

I get your point but will disagree on the decision being more due to logistics. I see more tipping in and inside ski skiing from kids that don’t get exposed to a proper GS skis. Easier to cheat in my opinion and kids can get around without learning how to arc a ski through to release. Not saying it’s the be all and end all, SL has its place for sure but it’s true that many kids just don’t learn to ski dynamically and with power due to (my view) being addicted to their small radius, turny skis that let’s them get away with poor technique.

As for setting, 14-18m is the requirement for all U10 and U12 GS races....unless we just aren’t going to have those kids race any GS at all. Those kids are on a 9-10m ski at that age/size so while it makes no sense, the reality is they race GS in a SL ski unless they have a proper GS ski (e.g. most don’t)

From a technique/tactic perspective, my view is those are both linked. Running GS with a SL ski does not allow for “proper” tactics nor technique. If you are wanting to teach a nice high line with turn under the gate, by the time they hit the rise line they just can’t hammer the gas as the vertical distance is much too far for a small radius ski....so we get a static hold and drift further down until they can apply pressure. (Also double turning) Or we get an uninspired turn without needing to apply much pressure so they don't overturn. Loss of movement and loss of power.

Likewise SL ski in GS course often promotes a better skier to run straight at the gate and just throw the feet around (no proper arc above the gate) or ski “late” because they can get away with it (late...which shouldn’t be confused with the big boy line) and still be fast.

Not saying GS is the be all and end all, just saying enough coaches and directors have seen enough variables as it pertains to young skier development to warrant a different focus right now. My peers in the US also suggest they see the same things and have what can be considered a larger GS turn shape focus as well.

If we are going to race GS, let’s teach proper GS turn shape with dynamic carving and power.

 

[razie]

Fair enough - there are some good points about that approach too - I guess as long as the focus is on getting them to bend the skis, it should work.

About the 14/9 - so the solution is to train more SL and PS instead of GS courses I would try to explain that to parents before the season and get them to buy a second hand pair... although indeed, U10 is likely just a one ski affair. Also, a focus on race results at that age may be misplaced (i.e. having to train lots in a GS course just because they happen to be made to race one).

Lots of varied free skiing is golden at that age. I would also err on the side of environments as opposed to courses, and largely just ignore the race results.

cheers

 

[Comish]

I'm just here to post an update back to the original topic, albeit not directly related.

Mini Comish had 2 Big G (longer, faster GS since U-10's don't do Super G in Far West) this past w/e. Saturday was rough as he had an evening performance at school on Friday which was emotionally taxing and then we rolled into Mammoth at 1am. Raced on his 135 GS skis while most kids on bigger skis. Was mad at himself and in tears after the race, just saying "I was slow". He was begging me to mount one of the new Blizzards I bought. I did grab a 142cm, mostly for one of the twins, but also in case the 149's were too big. He free skied on them Sunday morning and at lunch reported loving them. Race was after lunch, and after coming through finish line of Sunday's course was pumped. He was psyched with his performance before he knew what place he was in. He had knocked a couple seconds off the Saturday time (same run, albeit a different set, but times were very similar Sat. and Sun.). Was cute to see how psyched he was in how he skied, not knowing what place he was in. We talked about it and I asked him about the skis which he said he liked, but that it wasn't the skis it was the skier today.that made him fast

Finished in the medals just barely. Long way to go in GS, but is super focused and digging it. Looking like Saturday's race will be cancelled for POW

 

[Comish]

May 2019 update: He will be a 2nd year U-12 next year. Struggled a bit in GS this year, especially getting forward and pressuring the front of the ski to cleanly carve the start of the turn, especially when steeper and firmer. Coach after a weekend camp a couple weeks ago told him to gain a few pounds, he's 82 ibs and will be 11 in July, or get new skis. Called the coach to get some context and he suggested that perhaps the GS troubles were ski related and that he should try some skis with a torsionally softer tip. Borrowed some GS skis from the Rossi race rep in Mammoth this weekend to test and there was a pretty significant difference.

Played with both skis, a 149cm Blizzard GS and 151 Rossi GS and here are my observations for others out there: The longitudinal flex of the skis was actually quite similar, based on my oh so scientific hand flexing in the condo technique.
Rossi: tip is definitely torsionally softer and has a bit (couple inches) of "rocker". Much lighter set up. The plate is much less beefy a and doesn't connect the toe and heal piece. Has less sidecut than the Blizzard.
Blizzard plate is much more significant and likely lends some of the heft to the ski. The wide tip is quite a bit stiffer torsionally.

The range of weights for kids his age is significant. I know some of the other boys are 130 to 140ibs while Mini Comish is 82. That definitely has to make a difference and my $.02 after this year is I would look at the Blizzard/Nordica for bigger kids.

So looks like the Comish ski shop will be liquidating some excellent shape Blizzard/Nordica's as it looks likely we will be switching to Rossi for the coming year.

Love any other thoughts or suggestions on other brands to try for lighter kids.

Pretty cool when your 10yr old can hang with the Dad's ripping pow on Memorial Day! Huevos, Hangman's, Climax, Noids were all hit yesterday with Grom hanging tough!

Mammoth is still going strong. 90" base at Main lodge, current closing date is tbd in August sometime!

 

[hbear]

The Rossi at that length doesn’t have metal in the tip and tail. Actually same for their 158 length. Whereas the blizzard does.
Rossi/Dynastar are the most friendly at that length. Hand flexing I’m surprised you found the Rossi and Blizzard to be close....my daughter folds the short Rossi and was on the Blizzard up to the 163 GS length. (Lots of the stronger kids delaminating the Rossi jr as there is nothing there). However my daughter skis with a lot of power.

That being said we’ve now moved her to Rossi as the setup on the bigger skis is MUCH better than Blizzard (practically unskiable at the tween and up lengths) and she tested the best with them. She was already in the boot so it’s certainly a bonus for mom and dad to save a bunch of money on her gear now.

It’s the 165 GS length in which Rossi makes a jump in construction and 170gs where is effectively just a shorter adult ski (has the R22 plate as well).

 

[Comish]

The Rossi at that length doesn’t have metal in the tip and tail. Actually same for their 158 length. Whereas the blizzard does.
Rossi/Dynastar are the most friendly at that length. Hand flexing I’m surprised you found the Rossi and Blizzard to be close....my daughter folds the short Rossi and was on the Blizzard up to the 163 GS length. (Lots of the stronger kids delaminating the Rossi jr as there is nothing there). However my daughter skis with a lot of power.

That being said we’ve now moved her to Rossi as the setup on the bigger skis is MUCH better than Blizzard (practically unskiable at the tween and up lengths) and she tested the best with them. She was already in the boot so it’s certainly a bonus for mom and dad to save a bunch of money on her gear now.

It’s the 165 GS length in which Rossi makes a jump in construction and 170gs where is effectively just a shorter adult ski (has the R22 plate as well).

Thanks, interesting and makes sense that the Rossi doesn't have metal in the tip after fondling them. Do you know if the Blizzard has it in the shorter lengths, ala 135 or 142? Just wondering for the mini mini Comish twins coming up.

 

[hbear]

Yes Blizzard has full metal in the race skis, starting at 122 in the SL and 135 in the GS.
Construction really doesn't change from the 122 sl to 143sl and 135 GS to 163 GS.
Good solid ski that can handle whatever jr can dish out but still skiable for racers with less attack. As such we've found the Blizzards fit a fairly wide variaty of racers at those lengths/ages.....but changes dramatically at the next size (150 SL and 170 GS) in which they turn to concrete. There is a valid reason you do not see many U16/FIS athletes on them.

For the Rossi, the GS lengths that are sub 165 for GS you can actually see where the metal ends (e.g. it's not very far away from the plate) and there is a farily dramtic difference between the 158 and 165 (e.g. the 158 is still a very soft jr ski, while the 165 starts being able to handle the stronger skiers...much heavier as well). Funnily enough we find Rossi at the tween to fis lenghts to fit a WIDE range of skiers which is interesting. In addition the bindings/plate (SPX 10s for the jrs) while perfectly fine seem to be lighter and less robust compared to the marker TCX10 which has a metal heel vs. all plastic SPX10. For Look when you move to the 12 din it's pretty similar to the 15.

For context my daughter is going into second year U12 next season. She skis up a lot and trains on bigger sets so we have pushed the lengths based on her academy coaches recommendations for her. (right ski for the right set helps create enviroment for proper technique and tactical decisons). She will still race on the 142SL and 165GS given course setting constraints. Most kids seem to be on a 136SL (some really strong ones on the 142) and 149-158GS (really strong ones on the 158 with a few on the 165) by observation.

Edit: Learning to actually get on the outside ski is KING at this age....most kids that struggle arcing a clean line (arcing and not just riding sidecut) are tipped inside without suffecient pressure on the outside which is why parents go shorter to give jr a chance to make all the gates. The better kids up here were on a 18m ski for a 14-18m GS set. The 14m turns were tight, but they were able to run a proper line (in the case of my daughter through the panel) and jump on that outside ski to make it work.

Edit 2: Forgot about the boot, lots of time unable to get "forward" is due to boot being too stiff....our coaches suggest they RARELY see a jr. racer in a boot that is too soft. My liitle ripper is 100lbs now...skis with HUGE attack, on the 70SC Rossi which I understand is built more like an adult boot and we have cut it pretty much everywhere one can to get it soft enough for her coaches. Something to think about. (I believe head makes the same jump at the 80 flex).

 

[razie]

Edit: Learning to actually get on the outside ski is KING at this age....most kids that struggle arcing a clean line (arcing and not just riding sidecut) are tipped inside without suffecient pressure on the outside which is why parents go shorter to give jr a chance to make all the gates. The better kids up here were on a 18m ski for a 14-18m GS set. The 14m turns were tight, but they were able to run a proper line (in the case of my daughter through the panel) and jump on that outside ski to make it work.

Golden nugget warning.

That's also a big reason they tend to go softer on the boots. Also to make up for missing proper fore/aft alignment...



p.s. On the same note, this is the age when they MUST get the technique right or they will struggle a lot later, so invest in technique and good technical coaching more than in equipment! The equipment - it's fairly obvious when they outgrow it and their technique folds the boot and ski in half... having a range of second hand skis is also a better option usually, rather than betting on this or that ski and, as hbear said - if you have the option, go longer!

p.s.2. I'm not personally sold on Rossi as a good tech ski, although I hear good things about the Dynas. I had good results at the higher ages, swapping it for other models (Fischer, Atomic and even Head). But I haven't coached short skis in a long time and that just means you should take testing seriously... the one she/he feels good on now may not be the one to respond well to good technique in the future...

 

[AlpsSkidad]

I find the boot flex discussion interesting, as most seem to post about pushing softer boots being the norm for kids etc. It seems to contrast a bit from what I see in Europe where little emphasis is given to the younger kids on boots-at lease from our minimal experience. Most boots pushed by the team are on the stiffer side of things vs the discussions I see here.

 

[hbear]

Strange as our academy coaches that run camps all over the world are seeing the same push to softer boots (Austria, Norway, Sweden, it doesn’t matter....ankle flex is a must). Ultimately if jr isn’t able to properly flex their ankle, it is impossible to teach a proper turn.

Some differences among countries as to how one is to use the knee/hip, but boot flex and ankles are the same from what I’ve seen/heard.

That being said, interesting to hear. I know a bunch of younger kids here are moved into the stiffer boot (better buckles and hardware, but softened and cut up to flex easily at the younger ages). At the U14+ ages the better skiers are moved into plugs so perhaps that is what you are seeing.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

Strange as our academy coaches that run camps all over the world are seeing the same push to softer boots (Austria, Norway, Sweden, it doesn’t matter....ankle flex is a must). Ultimately if jr isn’t able to properly flex their ankle, it is impossible to teach a proper turn.

Some differences among countries as to how one is to use the knee/hip, but boot flex and ankles are the same from what I’ve seen/heard.

That being said, interesting to hear. I know a bunch of younger kids here are moved into the stiffer boot (better buckles and hardware, but softened and cut up to flex easily at the younger ages). At the U14+ ages the better skiers are moved into plugs so perhaps that is what you are seeing.

@hbear , thanks for the feedback. Admittedly my sample size is relatively small, consisting of training camps in Austria, France and Switzerland, and our racing team in France. As many on this board are, I'm a former racer (many moons ago- so I don't know much about current coaching philosophy), but my kids are very young, and we've only been racing for the past 2 seasons. I just hear the coaches telling us that our kids can go longer in skis and stiffer in boots- and that matches what I see them doing with many of the other kids in various age groups.

 

[razie]

Strange as our academy coaches that run camps all over the world are seeing the same push to softer boots (Austria, Norway, Sweden, it doesn’t matter....ankle flex is a must). Ultimately if jr isn’t able to properly flex their ankle, it is impossible to teach a proper turn. Coaches are not trained in the arts of fore/aft alignment and the boot techs rarely venture on the hill....

Some differences among countries as to how one is to use the knee/hip, but boot flex and ankles are the same from what I’ve seen/heard.

That being said, interesting to hear. I know a bunch of younger kids here are moved into the stiffer boot (better buckles and hardware, but softened and cut up to flex easily at the younger ages). At the U14+ ages the better skiers are moved into plugs so perhaps that is what you are seeing.

Yes, agree, that's classic. My experience however, makes me more and more convinced that it just makes up for a poor understanding of fore/aft alignment and lower level technique and provides quick results... Coaches are not trained in the dark arts of fore/art setup and boot techs rarely venture on the hill...


However, it's kind of like the training wheels on a bike.... Easy to put on and get someone going quickly, but they're not truly riding the bike....

If we remember that the skier should not have to push plastic to stay in balance, we can work this back from there...

 

[Swede]

Yes Blizzard has full metal in the race skis, starting at 122 in the SL and 135 in the GS.
Construction really doesn't change from the 122 sl to 143sl and 135 GS to 163 GS.
Good solid ski that can handle whatever jr can dish out but still skiable for racers with less attack. As such we've found the Blizzards fit a fairly wide variaty of racers at those lengths/ages.....but changes dramatically at the next size (150 SL and 170 GS) in which they turn to concrete. There is a valid reason you do not see many U16/FIS athletes on them.

For the Rossi, the GS lengths that are sub 165 for GS you can actually see where the metal ends (e.g. it's not very far away from the plate) and there is a farily dramtic difference between the 158 and 165 (e.g. the 158 is still a very soft jr ski, while the 165 starts being able to handle the stronger skiers...much heavier as well). Funnily enough we find Rossi at the tween to fis lenghts to fit a WIDE range of skiers which is interesting. In addition the bindings/plate (SPX 10s for the jrs) while perfectly fine seem to be lighter and less robust compared to the marker TCX10 which has a metal heel vs. all plastic SPX10. For Look when you move to the 12 din it's pretty similar to the 15.

For context my daughter is going into second year U12 next season. She skis up a lot and trains on bigger sets so we have pushed the lengths based on her academy coaches recommendations for her. (right ski for the right set helps create enviroment for proper technique and tactical decisons). She will still race on the 142SL and 165GS given course setting constraints. Most kids seem to be on a 136SL (some really strong ones on the 142) and 149-158GS (really strong ones on the 158 with a few on the 165) by observation.

Edit: Learning to actually get on the outside ski is KING at this age....most kids that struggle arcing a clean line (arcing and not just riding sidecut) are tipped inside without suffecient pressure on the outside which is why parents go shorter to give jr a chance to make all the gates. The better kids up here were on a 18m ski for a 14-18m GS set. The 14m turns were tight, but they were able to run a proper line (in the case of my daughter through the panel) and jump on that outside ski to make it work.

Edit 2: Forgot about the boot, lots of time unable to get "forward" is due to boot being too stiff....our coaches suggest they RARELY see a jr. racer in a boot that is too soft. My liitle ripper is 100lbs now...skis with HUGE attack, on the 70SC Rossi which I understand is built more like an adult boot and we have cut it pretty much everywhere one can to get it soft enough for her coaches. Something to think about. (I believe head makes the same jump at the 80 flex).

There used to be two versions of the Rossi/Dynastar 165 GS, one with a smaller plate and one larger. Also of the 150 SL.
And @razie FYI Rossi and Dynastar is the ”same” ski. My oldest daugher was on Rossi/Dynastar U14-U16, so had a few pairs (...) of both brands.

 

[hbear]

Rossi has a 149sl which is a jr ski and the 150sl which is completely different tween/adult construction. Very few 149s in use as when the skier is ready for the next size up....they are also typically ready for the 150.

I haven’t seen the 165 GS with different plates anymore. The 165 comes with the jr plate but have not see any with the R22 plate (which is the only plate they use now...no more R21). Was told it’s a huge pain to take the R22 off and put a R20/21 on now so it simply does not make sense to do. This is why the 170gs has the big boy/girl R22 plate. I guess they figured if an athlete is going on the 170gs, they can handle the R22 plate.

 

[Swede]

Not really up to date to be honest (no real experience w the R22), but looks like they still offer the 165 with the small plate (R20). But haven’t really seen that combo on any kids either, but ... seems to still be on offer. At least over here. The 170 GS wasn’t that nice, the flex wasn’t as good as the 175 and particularly the 182. My oldest did one pre U16 season glaciere on the 170:s and then went straight to the 182:s when the normal training started.

 

[hbear]

Yeah the 165 comes with the R20. Haven’t seen any with the adult plate.

You are right that most go quickly past the 170GS and straight to the next size up. We have a 170 for our daughter but mainly because she’s still quite young (turning 11) and just getting exposure training in bigger/heavier skis when she is in bigger sets. I suspect she won’t be using it very long and will go to the 175 sooner than later when time comes.

The R22 plate apparently is heavier and stiffer than priors as the new binding no longer connects the heel and toe with a bridge. Also there is now a rubber damper under the heel so the binding is always connected to the plate (unlike in the past when you could see a lot of daylight between the binding/plate).

 

[Comish]

Yes Blizzard has full metal in the race skis, starting at 122 in the SL and 135 in the GS.
Construction really doesn't change from the 122 sl to 143sl and 135 GS to 163 GS.
Good solid ski that can handle whatever jr can dish out but still skiable for racers with less attack. As such we've found the Blizzards fit a fairly wide variaty of racers at those lengths/ages.....but changes dramatically at the next size (150 SL and 170 GS) in which they turn to concrete. There is a valid reason you do not see many U16/FIS athletes on them.

For context my daughter is going into second year U12 next season. She skis up a lot and trains on bigger sets so we have pushed the lengths based on her academy coaches recommendations for her. (right ski for the right set helps create enviroment for proper technique and tactical decisons). She will still race on the 142SL and 165GS given course setting constraints. Most kids seem to be on a 136SL (some really strong ones on the 142) and 149-158GS (really strong ones on the 158 with a few on the 165) by observation.
.

The above is super helpful, thanks!

What lengths are you seeing the U12's race GS with? For example, if on the 158cm for GS, what size GS ski for SG? The suggestion here for U12's is to use a bigger GS ski and not go to a "real" SG ski. I think it's in the U14 realm when the start looking at actual SG skis, but I could be wrong...

 

[hbear]

Smallest SG ski I know of is 186. You don’t find many as parents tend not to buy them (opting for the 183-186 GS) which has a similar radius (and are much cheaper to find as you can easily get used skis).....HOWEVER they ski very differently as the GS ski is built stiffer and with a heavier athlete in mind for a different turn shape.

U14 is when they start speed up here. My daughter has a 186 SG ski as they are simply better for her size to ski a SG course. Yes an additional ski expense but gear cost is effectively rounding when you add up the total costs over a ski season.

We have a philosophy of buying the right gear and not making compromises. I suspect we will have zero issues selling them when she has outgrown them.

Edit: GS ski sizes at U12 posted above. But it’s really a crap shoot as there are still kids that only have a single pair of race skis (SL) and will use those in the GS set. Often as well parents go shorter with the GS ski (eg 142-149) thinking it’s better for jr in course given they don’t have to bend it and can just ride the side cut. Doesn’t really set them up well for U14 where the GS sets get real, get steeper, have more offset and jr now mandated to ski a GS ski with min length/radius.....

 

[Comish]

Thx! Opps, realize I meant what length for U12's for SG, but based on your response it looks like you figured it out.

In Far West, they start SG at U12. So we have 1 race at Championships and then 1 weekend w/ a training run friday, then race on Sat, and race on Sunday.