Let's talk about airbag backpacks

[Bruno Schull]

As it says in the title, let's talk about airbag packs.

First, there's enough evidence out there that airbag packs can help you survive an avalanche. I think that in the future airbag packs might be considered "essential" for avalanche terrain, like the combination of beacon-probe-shovel is considered essential today. If folks want to go in that direction, here's a good article to get started:

https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog/15943

But that's not what I wanted to talk about. I want to talk about technology. It's a young market, and there are so many options that it can be confusing.

• Single canister vs double canister (argon and co2)
• Battery vs capacitor
• The ability to easily test vs no such ability?
• Single airbag overhead or two air bags on the sides?
• Airbags with head protection vs without?
• Airbag volume and skier mass/volume?
• Removable system or self-contained system?
• Base unit plus modular add-ons or different packs of different sizes?
• And so on...

Thoughts? What do you use? What would you lean toward if you were going to buy an airbag pack?

Thanks,

Bruno

 

[Bruno Schull]

OK, I'll start

I'm not sure exactly why, but I'm leaning toward an old fashined canister system. Where I live (Switzerland) it;s easy to find, replace, or fill cyclinders, and the light carbon cylinders are easily available. Somehow, this seems more reliable to me. I won't travel on an airplane with the bag, so that;s no an issue.

I have two main uses: skiing off piste at a resort (smaller pack OK) or going on a ski tour (larger pack necessary). I don't like the weight/complexity of the modular systems, so I'll probably go with one pack I can use for both.

The Mammut packs are pretty nice....I also like the lighter Black Diamond pack (not the electric ones).

Anyway, it's probably an investment I need to make. Has anybody else taken the plunge?

Bruno

 

[dbostedo]

I believe @jmeb recently showed his new pack that he's recently purchased. He may have some thoughts on considerations for an airbag.

 

[Primoz]

I'm just thinking about replacing my old one with new one. My current one (ABS) is old style air (actually something else then air with ABS) canister. On one side, I somehow trust this thing more then some electronics do it's job when it's most of time outside at -20c and god knows what humidity. Another thing what I like with ABS is, that with both wings inflated, it's higher volume and bigger area then with any other. Not sure about position though. On one side it makes sense wings position like with ABS is better, on the other side, it also makes sense that behind your neck position, like pretty much everyone else have, is better, so no idea what would really be better.
Personally I would say Mammut system with head protection sounds great, but once open, you have very little head movement possible, and very restricted eyesight. I was never in avi myself, and I hope I will never be, but if there would be possibility, I would still do my best and try to ski out. With that peripheral eyesight, and head movement would be pretty good thing to have, so I'm not so keen of that one, and if I would go with Mammut, I would probably go with their standard airbag, not with "trauma protection" one.
What I certainly don't like with ABS is, that there's very limited option to test/try. Every opening costs about 25eur (that's price of canister and handle exchange here for ABS). With something like Scott (with Alpride E1 system), which is something I'm looking as replacement for my old ABS, you can train as much as you want, with zero expenses.
Modular or no modular... yeah my current ABS is modular, and if I know for sure I will be staying on lifts 100% of time, I switch zipon to 8L one, which is nice and flat, so it works better on chairlifts. But it fits only showel, probe, small water bottle, sendwich and fully squeezed primaloft midlayer jacket. No skins, no nothing else. So if I'm not sure if there will be some small portion of climbing up too and not just lifts, I put my standard 26L (or is it 28L) zipon, which can be made pretty small too, so it still works somehow on chairlifts too. So modular system is not really the most important thing for me.
Another thing is fixation of skis on backpack. I do quite lot of steep skiing, where you go up on crampons and icepicks, with skis on backpack. ABS system of diagonal ski attachment on outside side of backpack is honestly pain in the ass. It works sort of ok, but it takes forever to attach skis on, and on spring tours, where you might be walking bottom part due lack of snow, going downhill is sometimes quite a challange as you are keep banging your skis into your feet. So attaching skis on side of backpack, sounds much better idea for me, but for that ABS has no option due their airbag position.
So yeah I'm interested in this thread too, as I still didn't decide what to do. Keep current ABS Powder with 8L and 26L zipons, get new ABS, or go with most likely Scott E1 40L. I was almost 100% sure I will go with Scott month or two ago, but I'm honestly not that sure anymore.

 

[ZionPow]

I have used the Mammut Pro Protection Air bag for 90+ days each of the last 3 seasons. I really like it for comfort and durability. Very functional and my resort chose it over the competitors after demo of all brands.

Pro Protection Airbag 3.0 | Mammut

Haute Route? No problem. The new Airbag 3.0 technology means the packs are now even lighter and more comfortable, with technical features, not only appreciated by mountain guides and professionals. Access to the main compartment is via a zipper on the rear.

www.mammut.com

 

[fatbob]

I question whether it's really a young market as everyone I off piste ski with in Europe has probably had one for 4+ years and many are on 2nd iterations. I have a BCA float I chose for ease of refilling cylinder after travel ( though Euro airlines don't have the same no compressed gas rules as flights into US).

For the same reason now I'd choose a Scott supercapacitor.

 

[4ster]

I question whether it's really a young market as everyone I off piste ski with in Europe has probably had one for 4+ years and many are on 2nd iterations. I have a BCA float I chose for ease of refilling cylinder after travel ( though Euro airlines don't have the same no compressed gas rules as flights into US).

For the same reason now I'd choose a Scott supercapacitor.

I have had mine for more than 15 years

 

[Bruno Schull]

Fair enough--it's not a young market!

But it's certainty diverse!

As I said it's kind of mind-boggling (in a good way!) to sort through all the tech...

Here's something else to throw into the mix:

The few times I've tested these bags (in a shop) and rented them (on the slopes) the positioning of the pull handle was often very awkward for me--I'm really tall, and sometimes I fett like I was trying to reach across my chest and behind my back just to find the handle!

Some of the models have adjustable handle positioning, which I think is perhaps important.

Defintely the kind of thing you want to try on.

 

[James]

If in Europe I’d be very tempted to go with the Mammut canister system. Someone here was unable to get BCA canisters filled- in Chamonix!

The head protection thing- hard to say if the lack of visibility is worse than the protection.
Otherwise, I was thinking of the super capacitor system. But I agree, a bag of electronics in cold and constantly getting shaken is not confidence inspiring.

do quite lot of steep skiing, where you go up on crampons and icepicks, with skis on backpack. ABS system of diagonal ski attachment on outside side of backpack is honestly pain in the ass. It works sort of ok, but it takes forever to attach skis on, and on spring tours, where you might be walking bottom part due lack of snow, going downhill is sometimes quite a challange as you are keep banging your skis into your feet.

This relatively new Gregory system solves one of those problems. Haven’t seen it with airbag though.
Even this guy can do it-

Little more graceful-

 

[Mattadvproject]

I think if you are traveling overseas, to different places each year, then one of the electric, battery operated airbag systems is the most convenient way to go. My first pack was a Mammut airbag, with air cylinder and traveling to India (at the time, the only foreign trip I was running) was a major pain in the butt. I carried a Hills Mk3 heavy duty airpump, so I could refill the cylinder when I got there and that was a major inconvenience. I traveled like that for 2 seasons, leaving the pump in Gulmarg each year, then I think the Black Diamond JetForce came out and I got one of those instead. All my cylinder refill headaches went away and no more drama with the TSA.

I sold my Mammut pack and then ended up selling the airpump to a local shop in Gulmarg so they could do refills themselves. International travel has been so much easier with the JetForce, I have very few questions about flying with it from security, I think only once did I have some serious questions about it and that was in Aletai, in far NW China. They had obviously never seen a pack like this before and made me disconnect the battery and fly with it like that, as hand-luggage (I always fly with the bag as hand-luggage anyway, with the lithium battery unscrewed, ready to be disconnected if asked). I haven't been asked since..... sometimes the (what I can only assume to be) less-experienced TSA agents in Denver will ask some questions, but I also carry the TSA flying instructions that Black Diamond have on their website and once had to show those and as soon as the agent read them, then no more questions and I was sent on my way.....

I have the JetForce Saga 40L, but just bought the new 35L JetForce Pro. Looking forward to using that. Seems like it has a few little upgrades over the older Saga and should be a great pack.....

 

[Primoz]

@James I don't think this would work with ABS. ABS has airbags coming out of backpack on each side of the pack, and there shouldn't be any obstruction there. That's why their backpacks have only diagonal ski attachment option on outer side of the pack and no option to attach skis on side. Backpack, that have airbag on top of the pack, have more or less all of them option to attach skis on side too. So this diagonal attachment only is ABS specific due their airbag design, and system like this would pretty much guarantee your airbag would either not inflate or get damaged by skis when inflating.

 

[Troth]

I have had the BCA 32 for maybe 7 years. Its fairly heavy and much smaller than 32 liters of use able space but works fine. I'm hesitant on the electronic air bags because I would hate to break it tossing it in the back of the truck or something. I do like how the jet force bag can zip on different sizes.

Im actually looking for a new bag for the wife, if anyone has an recommendations for a bag that fits women well. She is 5' 4'' and likes to over pack. I have been looking at the mammut R.A.S bags because we could just get the bag to start then add the airbag later.

 

[Cheizz]

A few years ago, I tried a bunch of different airbags and backpacks that go with it. I found the Jetforce system very heavy and I wasn't too convinced of electronics in the moisture and cold of a snowy environment. The ABS system looked (at the time, maybe it has changed since 2017) a bit complex with many potential failure points.
In the end, I chose the Mammut 3.0 R.A.S. with a Dakine pack (Poacher RAS 26). Most packs that I tried (about 12 in total) didn't fit comfortably. The Dakine did, and the Mammut system has been great. There's a test mechanism that doesn't actually inflate the airbag. But at the beginning of the season, my local shop organizes an airbag event, where everyone checks his system, gets new cartridges, and in the process of all this, we try to establish a new world record.

 

[Primoz]

@Cheizz would you care to explain this "ABS looked a bit complex with many potential failure points"? As I wrote, I'm changing my current old ABS for something new (might be for this season, or if not this, then next one for sure), and for now I'm thinking of going either Scott with Alpride E1, or staying on ABS, but I might have missed something so opinion like this might tell me what did I miss to look at.

 

[Cheizz]

I believe ABS has a new system now. But the one that was shown to me at the time had all kinds of tubes and switches exposed in the pack. Personally, I never gave it much thought, since the backpacks fit me horribly. I cannot exactly reproduce all of it. I just know it was pointed out as a potential risk at the time.

 

[slow-line-fast]

BD jetforce for some years now. 40L, the largest available at the time, but the abs occupies some of that 40L. Wish it was bigger for some tours.

Battery can be unplugged but not removed.
Can be used about three times on a charge.

Cycle is: inflate, then short re-inflation pulses over about two minutes, then the whole thing deflates. In theory this keeps the bag inflated in case it is ripped enroute, then deflation creates an air space. Don’t know how this all plays out in practice, never used it in an any.

 

[Slim]

@Bruno Schull
I have the Mammut PAS (protection) Light 30 bag.
it fits me well, with easy grip to the trigger, I am 195cm/6’5” tall.
Since we fly almost every trip, I plan to replace it with an E1 system.

In the US it is cheap, but a hassle, to test fire the Mammut and refill the alloy cartridge (~$10 at my local dive shop).
With the Euro Carbon cylinder the system is very light.

Officially, you can fly with full cartridges in Europe and Canada, but some people still have problems with airport security , so it can be a hassle.

@Primoz mentioned the Protection (wraparound) Airbag hindering skiing once deployed. For me, I did not feel any restriction in normal range of motion, but I am tall, and have a tall neck. Short people might feel different.

Field of view was extremely limited, but in stress situations, you get tunnel vision anyway, so not sure how much difference it makes.
All this will be conjecture. No one has researched this, nor could they. My thought was I am not a skilled enough skier to ski out of an avalanche anyway, so more protection is better in my case.

I think for someone who doesn’t fly with the pack, living in Europe, I would pick based on weight and pack comfort/useabilty first, rather than Airbag system.
After all, you will be using it as a backpack every day, and as an airbag, hopefully never.

If you end up with 2 brands or models that work well as a pack, then I would start considering pro’s and con’s of the airbag system.

Mammut fits tall people well, and so does Black Diamond.

Mammut PAS and RAS and Alpride E1 are removable, and you can put them in a different pack. So not modular in the ‘zip-on’ sense of ABS and Black Diamond, but still you can buy 2 packs and 1 airbag system.

Mammut RaS goes in their own and Dakine (and maybe others) packs.
E1 goes in Osprey, Alpride, Scott and Millet packs and one other brand I know.

 

[James]

Did ABS stop selling P-ride with the group activation feature? So if one person in the group fires they all fire.

 

[fatbob]

As an aside I was once summoned off my plane at Innsbruck and carted over to a section of tarmac where my ski bag had been isolated - once I opened it and showed them the disconnected cylinder and piping/cables all was fine.

This was an airport who must get dozens of airbags through per day in winter - shows that they can still read a bag scan wrong.

 

[jmeb]

As mentioned, I recently purchased the E1. Full disclosure -- it's the first airbag I've owned though I have been following the tech for 5+ years now to make my choice.

I think various systems have a variety of benefits, none of them being the perfect system yet.

Canister upsides are a mature technology, variety of implementations/packs, weight and cost. Canisters also are the only packs to my knowledge where some have more head-surrounding airbags that may help prevent trauma.

Electric upsides are ease of travel, ability to regularly practice, ability to pre-test (e.g. the system can cycle so you can be sure it's operational), multiple deployments without going to a shop, and -- in Jetforce Pro -- auto deflation.

For my use case, an electric pack seemed to make more sense. I will likely fly with the pack once or twice a year and don't need to worry about finding a shop to recharge. I will backcountry ski in remote areas and don't want to have to worry about not being able to practice or having to refill after a deployment. I have read too many avy incident reports where deployments failed because either the user didn't have the pack armed or wasn't practiced at pulling the trigger during a tense situation. In all my avy training, I've been taught to rely heavily on regular repetition as a critical in ensuring you operate well when a moment occurs. I don't trust myself to train as well with a canister pack (due to time/energey/costs of refills).

Then it came down to E1 vs Jetforce. I liked the Scott bags, that the system was relatively modular, it was lighter, and reliance on supercapacitors. Supercapacitors are not noticeably impacted by the cold, they are easier to fly with than lithium-ion, and can easily be recharged via USB or two AA batteries. And as it turned out for the price of the BD Jetforce Pro 35L, I could have both the 30L and 40L bag + the airbag kit from Scott (albeit this is on proform...not exactly sure about retail comparison). I expect I'll wear a bag out prior to the airbag system -- so I have the 30L for most days and when necessary on patrol, and 40L for hut trips or when I need crampons/more space etc. If you're only buying one pack from Scott, the clear choice is the 40L.

My perfect blend of technology would be a supercapacitor bag with an additional capacitor and reversible fan for timed auto-deflate. Ideally with a bag shape that surrounds the head on deployment. Is modular between bags, one can buy spare airbags (in case of rips) and doesn't pack a huge weight penalty. That adds a ton of engineering challenges but I expect is where we will be in 10 years.