Lift ticket $ Insanity

[SSSdave]

All this is just another symptom within our short lifetimes of increasing Earth monkey OVERPOPULATION on this precious, fragile, blue water world. With nearly 8 billion of us now, it will only get worse in many ways. If our global population was say a stable 1 billion using sustainable attitudes, our existence given modern science and technologies could be a relative paradise in this universe with its billions of galaxies, each with billions of star systems with planets. But that grates directly with the dominant wealth driven short sighted corporate growth and development forces in control.

 

[KingGrump]

How many resorts will go to the Deer Valley model which simply limits the amount of passes sold on any given day..inclusive of season ticket and Ikon Holders?

The concept sounds good until one realized DV raised the cap from 6K to 10K. I have heard they have raised that cap to 15K. WTF.

 

[locknload]

The concept sounds good until one realized DV raised the cap from 6K to 10K. I have heard they have raised that cap to 15K. WTF.

Y..it comes to down to mtn capacity..and I don't know what the right mix between "busy" and "overcrowded" is...depends on the mtn, the lift system etc...but I like the idea of trying to measure that and then having a limit to try and preserve some kind of "customer experience" that is pleasant. I don't expect to ski on every chair without a line...there is a balance between deserted and overcrowded.

 

[crosscountry]

Next time I take my family of 4 skiing, I'm heading to the Alps. € 50 - € 100 per person per day for lift tickets at most places. € 100 / night for decent lodging. Even factoring in the airfare, I'm convinced I'll save money in the end.

Yes!

Even before the mega pass and sky high day ticket price, I've gone to the Alps for less than what I'd had to pay to ski the Rockies coming from the east coast.

The skiing is different. So if you're after powder, the Alps isn't the place for it, whatever the price. But for the average groomer zoomers who only ski a week a year (and live in the east coast)? I'm mystified why they don't head east over the Atlantic instead. I did, and was very satisfied. Stunning scenery and great food for less cost, what's not to like?

One thing to keep in mind, "decent lodging" is a different definition over there. You may find jamming 4 into a "family room" leaves precious little room to turn around... whilst the condition of the room maybe perfectly adequate.

 

[Wendy]

Yes!

Even before the mega pass and sky high day ticket price, I've gone to the Alps for less than what I'd had to pay to ski the Rockies coming from the east coast.

The skiing is different. So if you're after powder, the Alps isn't the place for it, whatever the price. But for the average groomer zoomers who only ski a week a year (and live in the east coast)? I'm mystified why they don't head east over the Atlantic instead. I did, and was very satisfied. Stunning scenery and great food for less cost, what's not to like?

One thing to keep in mind, "decent lodging" is a different definition over there. You may find jamming 4 into a "family room" leaves precious little room to turn around... whilst the condition of the room maybe perfectly adequate.

It gets less expensive if you bypass major resorts in the Alps or Pyrenees and head to say, Spain.

People don't think about skiing in Spain, but it's quite popular.
I saw more snow in the mountains around Madrid this January than I've seen all winter here in the mid Atlantic. Or the Catskills. Or New England.

 

[KingGrump]

Y..it comes to down to mtn capacity..and I don't know what the right mix between "busy" and "overcrowded" is...depends on the mtn, the lift system etc...but I like the idea of trying to measure that and then having a limit to try and preserve some kind of "customer experience" that is pleasant. I don't expect to ski on every chair without a line...there is a balance between deserted and overcrowded.

I have been skiing DV since 1981. It had been my 2nd favorite resort around SLC.

2019 was the first Ikon season. There weren't enough standing room in the locker area to boot up. Could barely get outside the base lodge with so many people milling around right outside. Lift line was decent - 3 to 5 minutes.

This season, I have seen video of 30 minute line on the carpenter & Slverlake chairs. Also seen on the Utah thread about 2 hour wait on the Jordanelle gondola.

During the holidays, it's been beyond busy and overcrowded. It's full on FUBAR.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I have been skiing DV since 1981. It had been my 2nd favorite resort around SLC.

2019 was the first Ikon season. There weren't enough standing room in the locker area to boot up. Could barely get outside the base lodge with so many people milling around right outside. Lift line was decent - 3 to 5 minutes.

This season, I have seen video of 30 minute line on the carpenter & Slverlake chairs. Also seen on the Utah thread about 2 hour wait on the Jordanelle gondola.

During the holidays, it's been beyond busy and overcrowded. It's full on FUBAR.

Edgar Stern would be spinning like a top! Deer Valley was designed for about 2,500 skiers a day max. Since the current shitbags took control there have been days with over 15,000 out there. (Just ask @Lorenzzo.) It’s basically unskiable at that level, not to mention suicidal from a safety perspective.

 

[crosscountry]

Y..it comes to down to mtn capacity..and I don't know what the right mix between "busy" and "overcrowded" is...depends on the mtn, the lift system etc...but I like the idea of trying to measure that and then having a limit to try and preserve some kind of "customer experience" that is pleasant. I don't expect to ski on every chair without a line...there is a balance between deserted and overcrowded.

I'm not sure if anyone is "measuring" that. Let alone setting ticket limit accordingly.

But given most bigger mountains have multiple sectors. There will be busy sectors and unbusy sectors. So if you were the owner, what would you use to set such limit?

2019 was the first Ikon season. There weren't enough standing room in the locker area to boot up. Could barely get outside the base lodge with so many people milling around right outside. Lift line was decent - 3 to 5 minutes.

I skied DV a few times before and after Ikon. I've not experienced any significant lift lines either way.

However, the locker rooms were a madhouse post-ikon. Unpleasant was my reaction, as my recollection of being there pre-Ikon was pretty civilized. On the other hand, a friend of mine who had never skied DV before absolutely loved the uncrowded glades with no lift lines. So she didn't even remember the maddeningly crowded locker room!

I would hate to not able to ski there on days because the locker room was too crowded and they stop selling tickets. On the other hand, those who got stuck waiting for the gondola for hours would no doubt wish the mountain stop selling tickets long before THAT!

 

[KingGrump]

I skied DV a few times before and after Ikon. I've not experienced any significant lift lines either way.

Bad timing.

 

[Bozzenhagen]

Hopefully it will correct itself. I think it will.

My un-educated theory is, you are seeing these numbers because during the past few years, various companies have been handing out $150K+ salaries in medium cost of living cities like candy (I guess mostly tech). I've heard of people getting massive jumps in salary, pretty much lifestyle changing.

What do you think happens when someone making <80K starts making that much money? It's probably correcting itself now with the layoffs.

 

[crgildart]

Hopefully it will correct itself. I think it will.

My un-educated theory is, you are seeing these numbers because during the past few years, various companies have been handing out $150K+ salaries in medium cost of living cities like candy (I guess mostly tech). I've heard of people getting massive jumps in salary, pretty much lifestyle changing.

What do you think happens when someone making <80K starts making that much money? It's probably correcting itself now with the layoffs.

So more income inequality will push prices back down? Not sure I like that solution..

 

[Lorenzzo]

Edgar Stern would be spinning like a top! Deer Valley was designed for about 2,500 skiers a day max. Since the current shitbags took control there have been days with over 15,000 out there. (Just ask @Lorenzzo.) It’s basically unskiable at that level, not to mention suicidal from a safety perspective.

IKON has dramatically changed DV. It’s not so much lift lines. Not that you won’t find yourself in some hellacious lines but it’s more about the design of DV. The chokepoints can be galactic. So we’re talking locker room, restaurants, trails, on and off loading Lifts and intersections. DV consist largely of narrow trails. It has a few bowls but part of the new IKON norm is avoidance of the Cottonwoods by SLC people during storms because of the shit show that develops there so they head over to DV to burn off IKON days. In years past they probably would never have touched DV. Unfortunately, they are realizing on powder days the powder has already been sold to a greatly expanded early tracks programs.

To try and sidestep issues, I’ve joined a club which enables me to avoid parking, cafeterias and locker rooms. It isn’t cheap but given what’s going on it’s well worth it to me. I’m not the only one who feels that way… this club has gone from some availability to a waiting list of more than 300 in the last year. I and most of these people would have seen no need in the past. So like many here, my head is swiveling looking for a non IKON/non-Vail solution.

 

[TheArchitect]

Hopefully it will correct itself. I think it will.

My un-educated theory is, you are seeing these numbers because during the past few years, various companies have been handing out $150K+ salaries in medium cost of living cities like candy (I guess mostly tech). I've heard of people getting massive jumps in salary, pretty much lifestyle changing.

What do you think happens when someone making <80K starts making that much money? It's probably correcting itself now with the layoffs.

I have a more depressing theory. I think that the resorts have come to the realization that the clock is ticking due to climate change so they're doing whatever they can to maximize profits now. That may not seem like the case out west but here in the east it seems less like a conspiracy scenario. I can't tell you how many lift ride conversations I've had with strangers over the last two years where the topic was how much longer can some of the eastern resorts survive with the weather trends here. If I'm Alterra or Vail I have people forecasting out 10+ years to see what the future might be. If it looks as bad as some think I'm doing everything in my power to maximize profit while I can and screw the skier experience.

 

[TonyPlush]

How many resorts will go to the Deer Valley model which simply limits the amount of passes sold on any given day..inclusive of season ticket and Ikon Holders? This is the way. Now..I don't know what their total number are skiers are on a given day and how may Ikon pass holders (7 total days on the Ikon pass currently) they project to been the mtn. An IKON pass holder is guaranteed a spot as well as any "buddies" they are bringing on their buddy pass. Obviously this model only works at certain resorts and there are a lot of details behind it...but I do like it.

I believe Big Sky is doing this. I just got an email from them that they anticipate selling out over President's Day. Not sure the specifics of their limit, but between that and upgrading to 6 and 8 pack lifts for a resort that's already uncrowded, they seem to be the most conscious about maintaining an uncrowded atmosphere.

 

[TonyPlush]

So like many here, my head is swiveling looking for a non IKON/non-Vail solution.

Powder Mountain? Sundance?

 

[AmyPJ]

IKON has dramatically changed DV. It’s not so much lift lines. Not that you won’t find yourself in some hellacious lines but it’s more about the design of DV. The chokepoints can be galactic. So we’re talking locker room, restaurants, trails, on and off loading Lifts and intersections. DV consist largely of narrow trails. It has a few bowls but part of the new IKON norm is avoidance of the Cottonwoods by SLC people during storms because of the shit show that develops there so they head over to DV to burn off IKON days. In years past they probably would never have touched DV. Unfortunately, they are realizing on powder days the powder has already been sold to a greatly expanded early tracks programs.

To try and sidestep issues, I’ve joined a club which enables me to avoid parking, cafeterias and locker rooms. It isn’t cheap but given what’s going on it’s well worth it to me. I’m not the only one who feels that way… this club has gone from some availability to a waiting list of more than 300 in the last year. I and most of these people would have seen no need in the past. So like many here, my head is swiveling looking for a non IKON/non-Vail solution.

Exactly what it's done to Snowbasin. Mondays are the new...Fridays now? I was looking through pictures from 2018/2019 and feeling pretty sad that a lot of the stuff I'd ski then that would remain untracked or minimally for DAYS is now chewed up in an hour. The choke points are scary AF.

 

[Bozzenhagen]

So more income inequality will push prices back down? Not sure I like that solution..

Just to be sure, I'm stating the salaries will adjust back down so there isn't such a huge difference anymore. The demand will go down and therefore, the lift ticket prices should hopefully go down (and maybe season pass prices too).

 

[crgildart]

Just to be sure, I'm stating the salaries will adjust back down so there isn't such a huge difference anymore. The demand will go down and therefore, the lift ticket prices should hopefully go down (and maybe season pass prices too).

Demand going down means fewer people able to ski. Restricting supply to push the elasticity in favor of the producers/sellers and keeping prices artificially high..and hoping that consumer buying power goes down forcing them to walk away isn't my preference.. I prefer the alternative of INCREASING SUPPLY, via competitors entering the market again.. Open up some of those closed mom and pop places..

Believe it or not, workers are still gaining, not losing bargaining power. That's why the latest jobs report was so rosey. Wages are not going back down. They are going up..


As for the factors beyond the control of suppliers.. Utah's been one of the biggest fans of climate change research and action. 10 years ago the people in power were listening to scientists telling them their reports would start failing much sooner than those farther north.

 

[Wendy]

Exactly what it's done to Snowbasin. Mondays are the new...Fridays now? I was looking through pictures from 2018/2019 and feeling pretty sad that a lot of the stuff I'd ski then that would remain untracked or minimally for DAYS is now chewed up in an hour. The choke points are scary AF.

Is the increase in skier numbers mostly due to population increase in the West? The SLC area has exploded. Those people are gonna go somewhere, do something. Same with Denver and the Front Range, Bozeman and Big Sky, Reno and Tahoe.

 

[Wendy]

I have a more depressing theory. I think that the resorts have come to the realization that the clock is ticking due to climate change so they're doing whatever they can to maximize profits now. That may not seem like the case out west but here in the east it seems less like a conspiracy scenario. I can't tell you how many lift ride conversations I've had with strangers over the last two years where the topic was how much longer can some of the eastern resorts survive with the weather trends here. If I'm Alterra or Vail I have people forecasting out 10+ years to see what the future might be. If it looks as bad as some think I'm doing everything in my power to maximize profit while I can and screw the skier experience.

This.
Businesses are looking at climate projections, no doubt.
Here in the northern mid-Atlantic, I'm surprised some ski areas are still open this winter. (It hasn't been winter here, at all).

I think ski areas are going for the short term profit while they figure out how to be sustainable long term.