Literature

[cantunamunch]

For you it is different as extremely significant body of the literature, which in my opinion deserves attention, is written in English so you just open the book and read but I am thinking: how many of the books I read before I could speak and read English did I understand correctly?

Eh, you're making the assumption English is my first language.

I was just working on a translation of some of my 5th form reading list into English - and it is brutally difficult. I spent like ten days debating between Black Pool, Black Mere and Black Water, just trying to avoid English connotations of those words.

The question becomes even more important when talking about real important stuff-for instance: Do we really know what Jesus has really said? I don't know many people who speak Aramaic. I have only read translations, so how do I know?

Certainly. And the translations are dated as well. How many words in English mean the same thing as they did in 1611? People love to fool themselves.

Do we really know what we think we know? Hehe, thanks for opening this ginormously big can of worms.

*Bows*

 

[mdf]

I don't really read literature anymore... pretty much just history and light fiction.

I am a big Joan Didion fan. The big picture (plotting, themes, etc) is good but maybe not the very first rank. But for how a paragraph is crafted, she is the best ever.

My other favorite is mid-carreer John Barth. I even liked "Letters" which doesn't get much love. But the last I read, "The Adventures of Somebody the Sailor" was embarrassing. Hmmm.. maybe I' shoukd give his work since then another chance.

On Hemingway, have you read "Everybody Behaves Badly" by Blume? It's the story behind Hemingway whike he was getting famous, and in particular about the real trip that turned into "The Sun Also Rises". A fun read. The title is a concise description of Hemingway and his crowd (except his first wife, who got a raw deal.)

 

[mdf]

War and Peace (if you have the nerves to endure all of it that is).

I loved War and Peace. You just have to slog through the first 100 pages till it starts to grab your attention.

 

[cantunamunch]

My other favorite is mid-carreer John Barth. I even liked "Letters" which doesn't get much love. But the last I read, "The Adventures of Somebody the Sailor" was embarrassing. Hmmm.. maybe I' shoukd give his work since then another chance.

Heh. I just re-worked through Tidewater Tales on the notion of getting into a Chester River paddling mood.

On Hemingway, have you read "Everybody Behaves Badly" by Blume? It's the story behind Hemingway whike he was getting famous, and in particular about the real trip that turned into "The Sun Also Rises". A fun read. The title is a concise description of Hemingway and his crowd (except his first wife, who got a raw deal.)

I kept getting weird parallels to the John Holmes story as told by Rolling Stone. Not kidding.

 

[Tony Storaro]

(except his first wife, who got a raw deal.)

Was she the one who got the boot because she was too careless with a certain suitcase of manuscripts at Gare de Lyon in Paris? What was it....Ashley?

 

[Tony Storaro]

Certainly. And the translations are dated as well. How many words in English mean the same thing as they did in 1611? People love to fool themselves.

Yes, brilliant, exactly! How do you capture the zeitgeist when there are so many nuances in a certain language?

It takes one to know one, aint that right? That's the reason about the only translation I can say I can rely on, more or less, is Shakespeare to my language, as it was translated by the greatest and finest living poet (he died actually) of my country at that time.

Tell you the truth, I would not endeavour translating anything more complex than a train timetable from English, this is how important I think this stuff is.

 

[Bruno Schull]

@ Tony S and others, I agree with you about translation. I like Neruda a great deal, and when I finally learned Spanish, I read several volumes with the original Spanish and English translations on facing pages. Sometimes the differences were striking.

Instead of thinking of what is lost (as something will always be lost) perhaps we may think of what is gained? A skilled and artful translator will create something that isn't precisely the same as the original, but is beautiful and meaningful nonetheless.

God, how I would love the read the Russians in the original. That's the language I'd learn--Russian--just so I could read Tolstoy, Turgenev, Chekov, Dostoevsky....

Funny point: I read something from a Arabic scholar, who claims that the recent translations have it all wrong. When a martyr goes to paradise, he is not greeted by 72 virgins....but by a platter on which are 72 raisins! Can you imagine the incredulous rage? "Hey, where are my virgins!" Talk about lost in translation!

 

[Tony Storaro]

God, how I would love the read the Russians in the original. That's the language I'd learn--Russian--just so I could read Tolstoy, Turgenev, Chekov, Dostoevsky....

Not a problem. You just need to start nice and early. About kindergarten time. And even then you will still not get 'em. The Russians. Different civilisation.

But to that list of yours, add Bulgakov, Kharms and Yerofeev.

Difficult to say who is the best among them but about the last one-I cannot think of anyone else who has put so much pain into so little words.


Well maybe apart from our beloved Hemingway's:

"For sale: baby shoes, never worn."

And that one haiku by the great Kobayashi Issa. The one about the cricket crying over the lamp, stained with ink by Issa's dead child.

You know the one.

 

[Bruno Schull]

I don't know those Russians! But I'm sure they're great. Will investigate.

About the, "For sale baby shoes...." I've heard that might actually not be Hemingway. Maybe a literary myth? But tragic nonetheless.

That reminds me of what I've heard described as the shortest poem in the English language, composed spontaneously at some kind of graduation/commencement speech, by Muhammad Ali. His poem was, "Me We." Great!

Issa
I have a collection of Haiku's by several authors including Issa, translated by Robert Haas? One of my favorites:

Grasshopper,
with his foot upon
the temple bell.

The tiny foot touching the great power of the bell...terrific.

I don't know the one you mentioned.

Have you read The Wandering Falcon by Jamil Ahmad? Fascinating interconnected stories. Completely shifted/expanded by view of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Anyway, literature is great!

We may not agree about skiing and Salinger, but we could probably have a great conversation about literature on the lift

 

[Tony Storaro]

We may not agree about skiing and Salinger, but we could probably have a great conversation about literature on the lift

We can't/shouldn't be so drunk on a lift.

 

[mdf]

Was she the one who got the boot because she was too careless with a certain suitcase of manuscripts at Gare de Lyon in Paris? What was it....Ashley?

Hadley. There may have been a lingering resentment about losing all of his manuscripts, but they did not split till later...

And much later Hemingway said that starting over made him a better writer.

 

[Tony Storaro]

And much later Hemingway said that starting over made him a better writer.

Favourite works?

I'll start first and say that apart from the obvious The Old Man and the Sea for me personally the absolute masterpiece of his work is The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber.

Absolutely brilliant!

And then Big Two-Hearted River.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Let's take this in another direction--what about modern fiction?

What have you read (if anything) that's made a real impression?

I was blown away by Tea Obrecht's first book, "The Tigers Wife" and even more by her second book, "Inland."

Crazy that it took a young woman with a Serbian-American background to write what is to me the quintessential novel of the American west....but she did it.

Read Inland--it's an amazing book.

 

[applecart]

Wait until you read To Paradise by Hanya Yanigihara. It's a flippin' masterpiece and I wasn't over the moon on A LITTLE LIFE. This is so much more ambitious. Best thing I've read in years.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Wait until you read To Paradise by Hanya Yanigihara. It's a flippin' masterpiece

I take you word for that, will be checking it. Thank you!

P.S. Not on sale till January 2022, guess we will have to wait. How the f""k did you get a copy man?

 

[applecart]

I'm in the biz

 

[Tony S]

How did I miss this thread? @Tony Storaro, I never took you seriously until now. At the same time I'm wondering if my love for Salinger has no more substance to it than your obsession with Stöckli.

 

[tch]

Favourite works?

I'll start first and say that apart from the obvious The Old Man and the Sea for me personally the absolute masterpiece of his work is The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber.

Absolutely brilliant!

And then Big Two-Hearted River.

Ok, I just skipped over this thread until now. I don’t want to hinder the progress towards modern fiction, but I can’t miss an opportunity to weigh in on Hemingway. Not a lot of disagreement about Big Two-Hearted River, but I’d definitely argue Macomber is still retrograde Hemingway. Instead, Hills Like White Elephants is without doubt H at his best.

 

[Tony S]

Let's take this in another direction--what about modern fiction?

What have you read (if anything) that's made a real impression?

I was blown away by Tea Obrecht's first book, "The Tigers Wife" and even more by her second book, "Inland."

Crazy that it took a young woman with a Serbian-American background to write what is to me the quintessential novel of the American west....but she did it.

Read Inland--it's an amazing book.

Will do. Loved TTW. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Tony S]

There are a few good books out there, eh?

Totally enjoyed Ann Patchett's The Dutch House. Pretty much anything by Julia Glass is more than worth reading. I particularly loved Three Junes and A House Among the Trees.

Currently reading Ishiguro's Klara and the Sun. Stunning so far.