Look Pivot 12s

[robertc3]

I need some bindings for my new Moment Wildcat 108s. I have been using Look SPX bindings for the last 8 years and I have really liked them. I did break the track on the heel piece one, probably from too many heavy landings. All of my family uses some flavor of Look and has for years. I am sure I would be happy to just put some SPX on the new skis, but if you have ever been to TGR you know that Pivots are everyone's favorite binding. I don't need a 15 or 18 binding because despite my skiing style and size I don't set my DIN above 8.5. If I am blowing out of my skis at a 8.5 there is something wrong with my skiing. I was thinking the Pivot 12s might be a good choice to get some lateral heel release and greater elastic travel. Does anyone have an experience with the Pivots, especially the 12? I could go to the 14 or 15 if there was a compelling reason to do so, but it isn't because I will ever set my DIN to 13.

 

[Philpug]

When you are buiying a better binding, you aren't usually buying jsut a spring or a number in a window (the Pivot 12 and 14 are the same binding, just a bigger spring in the 14), but you are buying a better housing, thus a better coupling from the boot to the ski. There is a significant difference going from the 12 to the 15 in

I was thinking the Pivot 12s might be a good choice to get some lateral heel release....

Note, the Pivot does NOT have lateral release from the heel, it rotates from the heel for a smoother toe release.

 

[robertc3]

Thanks, Phil. Digging deeper I see the toe piece is completely different between the 12 and 15. That is the kind of difference I was talking about, but I didn't see it on first inspection. I see that I misinterpreted the marketing "rotates around the tibia". That is great to understand better.

 

[Philpug]

I did break the track on the heel piece one, probably from too many heavy landings.

Right there is your reason to go with the 15.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Additionally the toe is also different in function.

 

[robertc3]

Phil, you note in your Look binding quick hit post that the brakes are low and landing switch is potentially an issue. How big of an issue is that? Would I have to be landing with the skis on edge? I generally just land with a pretty flat ski when I land switch and I have not had an issue with the SPX heel piece and brakes. I don't land switch much, but I do on occasion.

 

[Mike Thomas]

I was thinking the Pivot 12s might be a good choice to get some lateral heel release and greater elastic travel.

There is no lateral heel release with a Pivot. This is a myth that needs to die.

 

[GregK]

Phil, you note in your Look binding quick hit post that the brakes are low and landing switch is potentially an issue. How big of an issue is that? Would I have to be landing with the skis on edge? I generally just land with a pretty flat ski when I land switch and I have not had an issue with the SPX heel piece and brakes. I don't land switch much, but I do on occasion.

More of an issue when too wide of a brake is chosen for the ski and you have lots of overhang to catch the other ski’s brake or features with terrain park. Many run brakes either too wide and have lots of overhang or run ones too narrow and bend them out which can be more prone to catching on things skiing switch.

The 115mm Pivot brake is perfect for 108mm skis and shouldn’t need any adjustments. Should tuck in nicely and not catch.

 

[neonorchid]

^ first and foremost what he said, plus the heel forward pressure needs to be adjusted correct for the brakes to clear the sidewalls and retract up onto the top sheet.

 

[robertc3]

Thanks guys.

 

[oldschoolskier]

@robertc3 I was on PX14 and quickly upgraded to PX15 even though at a 8.5 setting. The primary reason was the beefer binding and better elasticity, primarily in the toe.

14 popped out, 15's hold, because of toe mechanics.

I agree with Phil on the construction, if your a strong skier or jump and bang around a little the 15's are the way to go. Shame Look doesn't increase the range a little at the bottom end as despite the premium the it is a great binding. Consumers would pay.

 

[Philpug]

Shame Look doesn't increase the range a little at the bottom end as despite the premium the it is a great binding. Consumers would pay.

6-15 is damn good and it was work to get the Pivot 15 to market. The only all metal modern binding that was better was the Tyrolia Mojo/Peak 15, that was an incredible 5-15. Salomon 16's start at 7 and the Marker Jesters also does start at 6.

 

[tomahawkins]

"rotates around the tibia"

I suspect this is more misinformation that is falsely implying better safety.

Others here probably know better than I, but I think the reason that Pivots have a rotating heel is to prevent the boot from binding on the heel clamp links on a toe rotational release. No other binding has a rotating heel because no other binding has hardware impeding the side of the boot like the Pivot does. But because the rotating heel is so unique, it tends to attract ideas like "rotates around the tibia" that are at best, secondary, and "enables a lateral heel release", which are downright false.

Does anyone know the inside design history of the Pivot at Look? I'm guessing they first came up with the short mounting distance design then discovered the bails could impede the boot on a toe release so they fixed the problem with a rotating heel. Rotating heels go all the way back to the Nevada's, right?

Ah, yep. I was right.

Look Nevada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[oldschoolskier]

6-15 is damn good and it was work to get the Pivot 15 to market. The only all metal modern binding that was better was the Tyrolia Mojo/Peak 15, that was an incredible 5-15. Salomon 16's start at 7 and the Marker Jesters also does start at 6.

I agree, and if the trim a little wt get rid of the 14. Less cost more profit with the 15.

12.... light skiers or skier wanna be's, 15 skiers

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I would do whatever Phil says.

How much do you weigh? How tall are you? What is your boot sole length? What length ski are you going to put them on?

Last Winter I was 206 lbs. (now 188 lbs.), 5' 11" tall, my boot sole length is 332mm and I ski on 184cm DPS Wailer Alchemist 100RP, 172cm Stockli SC, and occasionally on 195cm Super7, and some other skis. If IRCC, Look Pivot 12 bindings are on all of them and all are set to 8.5 DIN. For my purposes they seem to work fine.

Update: I do not pre- release on them. They do not seem to load and then "bam!" I am out. Just the opposite. They are smooth when they release and very rarely do they release.

I have primarily skied on Look Pivots. The Pivot 15 toe piece looks like my old Forzas. If Phil says it functions better at 8.5 DIN than the Pivot 12, then go with it.

 

[Mike Thomas]

It doesn't function better, it holds the skier in better because it loses a plane of release. There is no vertical toe release, so it's "better" if you put a lot of force into rear spine of your ski boot. If that makes a difference for a skier skiing at 8.5, I would say maybe climb out of the trunk and move to the backseat like 80% of the skiers who have no problem whatsoever with retention on a "plastic" binding. The parts of the Pivot that break are made out of metal on all models, the metal IS the stuff that breaks, not the plastic. I really like Pivot bindings, a lot. I own at least 10 pair of P18's, but holy hell, the mystique, myth and flat-out bullshit about these things needs to die in a fire. The lower din toe piece is ugly, that is ALL that is wrong with it if you aren't interested in higher din settings. It is dramatically lighter weight (the 15 and 18 counteract making your skis dramatically heavier by making your wallet dramatically lighter) and it has additional safety in a rearward fall. No one breaks the plastic toe, that is not a failure point of these. The heel base plates and the half moon break. Those are shared throughout the line.

 

[oldschoolskier]

It doesn't function better, it holds the skier in better because it loses a plane of release. There is no vertical toe release, so it's "better" if you put a lot of force into rear spine of your ski boot. If that makes a difference for a skier skiing at 8.5, I would say maybe climb out of the trunk and move to the backseat like 80% of the skiers who have no problem whatsoever with retention on a "plastic" binding. The parts of the Pivot that break are made out of metal on all models, the metal IS the stuff that breaks, not the plastic. I really like Pivot bindings, a lot. I own at least 10 pair, but holy hell, the mystique, myth and flat-out bullshit about these things needs to die in a fire. The lower din toe piece is ugly, that is ALL that is wrong with it if you aren't interested in higher din settings. It is dramatically lighter weight (the 15 and 18 counteract making your skis dramatically heavier by making your wallet dramatically lighter) and it has additional safety in a rearward fall. No one breaks the plastic toe, that is not a failure point of these. The heel plates and the half moon break. Those are shared throughout the line.

The 14's and lower allow smmovement to a point and BAM! you are released suddenly, add in any tiny bit of upward/forward movement and it gets worse, the 15's and up allow more movement and better return to center. Took me 3-4 hours of playing around to figure out why I release at extremely slow speeds and almost zero loading (at least from my perspective). IMHO the 15's and up allow for better retention with enough flex not to cause injury, additionally I suspect if lower settings where possible, at a lower release setting still having better retention.

Marker did something similar years ago on the M48 with the Biometric toe. Any slight upward/forward load during a side load you where out.

As to plastic, I have broken plastic bindings and never broken metal ones.

To be fair, are the 14's and below good bindings, yes for most. If you want confidence of a perfect balance of retention/release, the exception long standing design of the 15's and up is the way to go.

 

[Marker]

Personally, I like the look of the new 12/14 toe piece more than the metal 15/18, with the former updated for WTR and Gripwalk compatibility if that matters to the OP. I have an old 12 and new 14 as well as old and new Rossi Axial equivalents to the SPXs. Despite their upward toe release, I have never had a pre-release from the Pivot 12 and 14s, which I can't say is true for the Axials. And this is at DIN 8 for 6'6", 225 lb, 345 BSL, 62 yo, so I put a lot of torque on my bindings even if I don't do jumps, drops, or switch. I started with Look bindings for their greater elasticity and toe release for safety and the Pivots have not disappointed. In falls where my bindings release, the heel is usually rotated so I would say it is performing its function as designed.

 

[cantunamunch]

<-is perfectly happy to be one of the very few hoarding Peak/Mojo 15 parts

 

[tomahawkins]

The 14's and lower allow smmovement to a point and BAM! you are released suddenly, add in any tiny bit of upward/forward movement and it gets worse, the 15's and up allow more movement and better return to center.

I measured more elastic range with the 12/14s than the 15s. You may be right that upperward movement changes the effects, but I find this axis is really stiff.