Masters ski selection

[Ivan]

Well, let's just say that the NY Masters race went okay, but definitely not great. I was very slow and finished near the bottom of the rankings. This is perhaps unsurprising, considering that I had only raced twice before (both times 6 years ago), have never trained in the gates, and do very little free skiing these days (mostly teach my 5 year old to ski). At least I finished all 4 runs, so it could have been worse.

While skis most probably have very little to do with my performance, I noticed that the majority of racers used various types of "cheater" GS skis (from 170+ cm retail models to various types of masters GS skis to older 183/23 GS skis). Maybe it would have been easier to ski on shorter "cheater" skis, but, again, without proper training it is difficult to race well.

I do, however, have one question, and am hoping that @ScotsSkier might be able to help. I noticed that there is a wide variety of GS skis on the market. I was looking, for instance, at these Dynastars and these Heads. I was just wondering how to navigate the GS market. Are these 182/21, 185/25, 181/25 etc. models intended for juniors, or for masters racers (though Dynastar has a separate masters model), or for someone else? If I decide to get a shorter/easier to turn pair of GS skis, it would help to know what exactly I am getting.

P.S. When I free skied on my 188/30 Dynastars in the past, I was often having troubles with making them turn. While I struggled in the gates today, on my only run after the race I felt like I was able to turn better than before. I didn't have time for more runs because my wife and two kids were waiting, bit I'll see if racing helps with my everyday skiing.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Well, let's just say that the NY Masters race went okay, but definitely not great. I was very slow and finished near the bottom of the rankings. This is perhaps unsurprising, considering that I had only raced twice before (both times 6 years ago), have never trained in the gates, and do very little free skiing these days (mostly teach my 5 year old to ski). At least I finished all 4 runs, so it could have been worse.

While skis most probably have very little to do with my performance, I noticed that the majority of racers used various types of "cheater" GS skis (from 170+ cm retail models to various types of masters GS skis to older 183/23 GS skis). Maybe it would have been easier to ski on shorter "cheater" skis, but, again, without proper training it is difficult to race well.

I do, however, have one question, and am hoping that @ScotsSkier might be able to help. I noticed that there is a wide variety of GS skis on the market. I was looking, for instance, at these Dynastars and these Heads. I was just wondering how to navigate the GS market. Are these 182/21, 185/25, 181/25 etc. models intended for juniors, or for masters racers (though Dynastar has a separate masters model), or for someone else? If I decide to get a shorter/easier to turn pair of GS skis, it would help to know what exactly I am getting.

P.S. When I free skied on my 188/30 Dynastars in the past, I was often having troubles with making them turn. While I struggled in the gates today, on my only run after the race I felt like I was able to turn better than before. I didn't have time for more runs because my wife and two kids were waiting, bit I'll see if racing helps with my everyday skiing.

Congrats on finishing. Depending on the set - masters GS can be set at 23-30m and there is quite a difference (i usually set at 26-27m) - the 30m ski can be hard work at the shorter distances, especially without training. OTOH, going to too small radius like 18 leads to a lot of bad habits like running straight at the gates plus the risk of highsiding when the ski hooks up too much. Depending on where you were racing I know NY masters races can often be shorter sets than we typically see in Far West.

You are right there is quite a variety of different versions of GS skis out there. The "masters" skis are usually 180-185cm and 23-25m. I am not a big fan of most of them because some of them - Rossi and Atomic - have a wider waist which makes them a bit slower edge to edge (IIRC the Rossi is 72 and the Atomic is 68, some like the Augment Pro masters ski have a normal GS 66 waist). Then you have the "tweener" skis aimed primarily at U16s (and often also described as FIS skis) typically 185-186 with a 26-27m radius. It used to be that these were built a bit lighter and not always suitable for heavier (eg masters!) racers but now most of them seem to be better build/stiffness and below say 165/170# should work well. Once you start going smaller they tend to be aimed at U14 or first year U16/U16 girls. This is all generalities of course, there are variations across brands. For example the 182 Dynastar you linked to is IIRC a 23ish m ski and could be treated pretty much as a "tweener"and is a decent choice Unless someone is older/lighter I probably wouldn't put a male Masters racer on say the 181/25 Head though.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM with questions

 

[Ivan]

Congrats on finishing. Depending on the set - masters GS can be set at 23-30m and there is quite a difference (i usually set at 26-27m) - the 30m ski can be hard work at the shorter distances, especially without training. OTOH, going to too small radius like 18 leads to a lot of bad habits like running straight at the gates plus the risk of highsiding when the ski hooks up too much. Depending on where you were racing I know NY masters races can often be shorter sets than we typically see in Far West.

You are right there is quite a variety of different versions of GS skis out there. The "masters" skis are usually 180-185cm and 23-25m. I am not a big fan of most of them because some of them - Rossi and Atomic - have a wider waist which makes them a bit slower edge to edge (IIRC the Rossi is 72 and the Atomic is 68, some like the Augment Pro masters ski have a normal GS 66 waist). Then you have the "tweener" skis aimed primarily at U16s (and often also described as FIS skis) typically 185-186 with a 26-27m radius. It used to be that these were built a bit lighter and not always suitable for heavier (eg masters!) racers but now most of them seem to be better build/stiffness and below say 165/170# should work well. Once you start going smaller they tend to be aimed at U14 or first year U16/U16 girls. This is all generalities of course, there are variations across brands. For example the 182 Dynastar you linked to is IIRC a 23ish m ski and could be treated pretty much as a "tweener"and is a decent choice Unless someone is older/lighter I probably wouldn't put a male Masters racer on say the 181/25 Head though.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM with questions

Thank you, this definitely helps. Here is a photo from the race that shows how the course was set. It is hard for me to judge because my experience is extremely limited, but the set on the steeper section looks pretty tight to me.

I am 6'0" and 155 lbs. In my previous races, I used the 183/23 Atomic GS skis. They delaminated a year ago, so I replaced them with the 188/30 Dynastar. I think the old skis were easier to use in the gates, though I understand that many other things have changed over the past 6 years, so the comparison may not be fair.

I hear your point about avoiding too small radius and, if anything, I like longer radius for free skiing. It took time to adjust to the 188/30 skis, but I like the learning process in itself. However, if I end up racing more frequently, the 30 m radius might be a bit too much to handle (especially if I also race in the local beer league with an even tighter set). I just wish the manufacturers included more information about various skis on their websites. On the Head website, the descriptions of different models are identical, so it is impossible to tell the intended use from it. I am glad there are knowledgeable users here on this forum

 

[ScotsSkier]

Thank you, this definitely helps. Here is a photo from the race that shows how the course was set. It is hard for me to judge because my experience is extremely limited, but the set on the steeper section looks pretty tight to me.

I am 6'0" and 155 lbs. In my previous races, I used the 183/23 Atomic GS skis. They delaminated a year ago, so I replaced them with the 188/30 Dynastar. I think the old skis were easier to use in the gates, though I understand that many other things have changed over the past 6 years, so the comparison may not be fair.

I hear your point about avoiding too small radius and, if anything, I like longer radius for free skiing. It took time to adjust to the 188/30 skis, but I like the learning process in itself. However, if I end up racing more frequently, the 30 m radius might be a bit too much to handle (especially if I also race in the local beer league with an even tighter set). I just wish the manufacturers included more information about various skis on their websites. On the Head website, the descriptions of different models are identical, so it is impossible to tell the intended use from it. I am glad there are knowledgeable users here on this forum

Yes. looks like a fair bit of swing there on the pitch. The 188/30 ski can work well but it does take some experience and training with it in gates to get the most out of it. It works best with a high turn shape and quick transition. Once you start getting late it takes a lot of work to get it back (In fact I just made a couple of runs in a U14 course set at 21m today on a 188/30 and yes, it was extremely hard work!!) At 155# the tweener skis would work well for you. Atomic makes a 186/26m ski which several of my athletes who were on the Atomic RS (masters) 183/23 ski have now switched to. Personally also I could never get the 188/30 Rosso ski to work well for me, just didn't like the tip, didn't hook up quickly the way i like. Also check the base bevels on you dynastars, they tend to come froth factory at 1+ and need a grind

 

[Swede]

Are these 182/21, 185/25, 181/25 etc. models intended for juniors, or for masters racers (though Dynastar has a separate masters model), or for someone else? If I decide to get a shorter/easier to turn pair of GS skis, it would help to know what exactly I am getting.

U16 skis. My daughter were on the Dynastar (and Rossi's too). 25ish meter radie. Basically the same construction as the normal FIS, only a little flexier and shorter. Slap on a SPX 15 or MFX 15 (both fit R21 plate) and you are ready to go. Very good ski. Built for racing. 65 mm waist.

The HEAD is the same "type" of ski--U16 race ski with 25ish m radius.. Quite a few in daughters team were on it in U16, but I have no real experience with it besides handling it on camps, sharpened edges, checked forward pressure on bindings etc. But nice ski that does its job.

EDIT: Like SS say, they can come "crude" from factory. Racers are expected to have them prepared the way they want them and not be satisfied with "factory bevels".

Some brands are more confusing than others. HEAD being one inmo. There are som much "World Cup" and "race" that you can't really trust. They also have a 183 R25ish, that is a recreational race ski. You can normally tell on the waist. If it's more than 65 mm it is a recreational race ski. Not all of them handle gate abuse well and brake.

 

[JTurner]

Ivan, congrats on getting into racing and starting a fun journey. Something to keep in mind is that the longer radius skis like 30M FIS GS skis, don’t work as well on the flats, or when the snow is soft. Many times league or even masters races away from true mountain areas have a flat top or bottom section to the course, and these don’t get slipped out as much so the snow is soft. So don’t feel bad if at times the skis were a handful. Sometimes to be really fast you need the right ski for the hill or course set that day, and sometimes that’s a shorter radius ski. But keep at it and get to where you can make those skis work for you on steeper faster sections where snow is hard and you’ll get a lot out of it.

 

[bbbradley]

Well, let's just say that the NY Masters race went okay, but definitely not great. I was very slow and finished near the bottom of the rankings.

Did you have fun? That is an important 1st step in the process. It sounds hokey, but it's true.

After my hiatus from racing, my 1st race last year was not the result I had hoped for, but I had fun and reminded me how much I missed racing. Those 30m skis are a handful, (I have more racing experience than you do and I have 35lbs on you from what you said) and I struggled on them initially. I am now comfortable free skiing on them, but the 1st gate test will be next week for 2 GSs at Berkshire East. I expect to have a few good turns and some bad turns on them, especially on the 1st run. I hope by the 4th race run of the day the good/bad turn ratio has turned in my favor.

 

[bbbradley]

I've stared at this photo and two things stand out:
1) Looks like the hill goes back uphill off in the distance.
2) I cannot figure out her line relative to the course.

 

[JTurner]

2) I cannot figure out her line relative to the course.

Looks like just starting the right footer turn way early

 

[S.H.]

I've stared at this photo and two things stand out:
1) Looks like the hill goes back uphill off in the distance.
2) I cannot figure out her line relative to the course.

if her skis were arcing from that still, she'd go straight through the panel (or maybe be fully inside it). Offset looks fairly big going onto a steeper section - slide into the fall line and hammer the outside ski to get across the hill

 

[Ivan]

@ScotsSkier @Swede Thank you for your advice regarding skis! I bought my current GS skis used, and they came with a 0.5/3 tune. I've heard before that new race skis can come from factory "unfinished"; this is actually one of the reasons why I would often prefer to buy used, rather than new, race skis.

The 182/25 Dynastars are sold by a good ski racing shop (I went there to buy my current Lange boots), so if I decide to buy them, I could request a race tune together with the purchase. Will I buy them? Well, I don't know yet. They certainly look like good skis, but the question is how much I will actually race.

This brings me to some of the points that @JTurner and @bbbradley made. I certainly enjoy racing, though it wasn't a great feeling to end up close to the bottom of the rankings. However, I might have underestimated the level of the NY Masters league. I previously raced in Sierra League races around Tahoe (@ScotsSkier might be familiar with that league) and I was in the middle of the pack there. Here, pretty much everyone is a lot faster than me. In fact, there are a few racers who have finished on the podium in the Nationals Masters, so they must be pretty good

Anyway, I try to remind myself that I am not competing with others at this stage; I am trying to have fun and improve my skills. And here comes the question of how much time I can realistically devote to training and racing. Currently the nearest masters training is 2 hours away; all races on the calendar, except for the one I took part in, are 2-3 hours away. It's not that far, but we have two little kids, the older one is in school (3 days a week remote = a lot of work for the parents) and in his third ski season. My wife works full time, I am on tenure track and need to publish a lot to get tenure. Our extended family is about 5,000 miles away, and with COVID travel is pretty much impossible.

I don't want to complain because there is a lot I am grateful for, and many people are in a much more difficult situation, but still I am trying to figure out how much I can commit to ski racing without sacrificing family or work. I don't know the answer yet.

On a positive side, though, there might be masters training on our "home resort" (45 minutes away) next season. If it does happen, I will probably try to train regularly.

 

[ScotsSkier]

@ScotsSkier @Swede Thank you for your advice regarding skis! I bought my current GS skis used, and they came with a 0.5/3 tune. I've heard before that new race skis can come from factory "unfinished"; this is actually one of the reasons why I would often prefer to buy used, rather than new, race skis.

The 182/25 Dynastars are sold by a good ski racing shop (I went there to buy my current Lange boots), so if I decide to buy them, I could request a race tune together with the purchase. Will I buy them? Well, I don't know yet. They certainly look like good skis, but the question is how much I will actually race.

This brings me to some of the points that @JTurner and @bbbradley made. I certainly enjoy racing, though it wasn't a great feeling to end up close to the bottom of the rankings. However, I might have underestimated the level of the NY Masters league. I previously raced in Sierra League races around Tahoe (@ScotsSkier might be familiar with that league) and I was in the middle of the pack there. Here, pretty much everyone is a lot faster than me. In fact, there are a few racers who have finished on the podium in the Nationals Masters, so they must be pretty good

Anyway, I try to remind myself that I am not competing with others at this stage; I am trying to have fun and improve my skills. And here comes the question of how much time I can realistically devote to training and racing. Currently the nearest masters training is 2 hours away; all races on the calendar, except for the one I took part in, are 2-3 hours away. It's not that far, but we have two little kids, the older one is in school (3 days a week remote = a lot of work for the parents) and in his third ski season. My wife works full time, I am on tenure track and need to publish a lot to get tenure. Our extended family is about 5,000 miles away, and with COVID travel is pretty much impossible.

I don't want to complain because there is a lot I am grateful for, and many people are in a much more difficult situation, but still I am trying to figure out how much I can commit to ski racing without sacrificing family or work. I don't know the answer yet.

On a positive side, though, there might be masters training on our "home resort" (45 minutes away) next season. If it does happen, I will probably try to train regularly.

I understand well. I started masters racing in 2005 - with no training - in New England masters. And yeah, the standard was pretty high (and yes, I got my clock cleaned! ) . And yes I am familiar with the Sierra League, other than a few racers (most of whom also race masters) the standard is a couple of steps below Masters.

The key thing to remember with Masters is that there is always someone to compare yourself to and to use as your target. Then when you overtake them you find the next target. Part of the fun!

 

[ScotsSkier]

@Ivan . Good is see that you are following the first rule of Masters......what can I buy to improve my performance! You will find yourself in good company! However, given you are not likely to be racing much in the near future, enjoy the 30m ski in the meantime - it is a great fun ski! - and see if you can make the investment in some good race coaching/training instead. That will pay much greater dividends. ( And, no offense to PSIA colleagues here, but find a proper race coach, not ski school). you will be amazed how much progress you will make quickly with good coaching.

 

[Johnny V.]

I was too lazy to leave the house at 6:00 AM to make the NY Masters Greek Peak race, but I've raced on that hill quite a few times. Flat out of the start house then a fairly steep (and often icy) headwall where the pic was taken, a fairly flat area (better have speed going into it) then a drop to the finish. Narrow and short hill, so the sets can't be too big. It's not like racing out west or even New England. Not sure how many of even the fast guys like Tom Scheeler are using 30 meter skis on these courses.

If you make to the Hunt Hollow race, look me up. I'm a Mens class 9 so my bib number will be pretty low. Hopefully next year we can get back to the social aspect of Masters and adult racing which is a big part of the fun. Good luck!

 

[Ivan]

Good is see that you are following the first rule of Masters......what can I buy to improve my performance! You will find yourself in good company!

Well, not just Masters skiing, but also tennis. If I win, it's because I play well. If I lose, it's because of my racquet Seriously, though, your advice makes perfect sense. I think the benefit from training would be greater than from switching skis. In my first of the four runs, I was late all the time and was turning below the gates, losing time. In the remaining three runs, I tried to compensate for that, but probably end up turning too much above the gates. I think even just practicing a few times would help a lot, and if I can find a way to train regularly, it will be even better.

As I said before, I was told that there might be weekly Masters training at our hill, Greek Peak, next season. If that happens, I will definitely try to sign up. As far as coaching go, the person who told me about the possibility of Masters training won the Masters Nationals among women in all disciplines in 2018, so she must be pretty good. On a separate note, my older son will turn 6 this year, and we might sign him up for a race program at our hill. That might be another opportunity to meet good coaches.

 

[Ivan]

I was too lazy to leave the house at 6:00 AM to make the NY Masters Greek Peak race, but I've raced on that hill quite a few times. Flat out of the start house then a fairly steep (and often icy) headwall where the pic was taken, a fairly flat area (better have speed going into it) then a drop to the finish. Narrow and short hill, so the sets can't be too big. It's not like racing out west or even New England. Not sure how many of even the fast guys like Tom Scheeler are using 30 meter skis on these courses.

If you make to the Hunt Hollow race, look me up. I'm a Mens class 9 so my bib number will be pretty low. Hopefully next year we can get back to the social aspect of Masters and adult racing which is a big part of the fun. Good luck!

The slope was surely icy, but it wasn't a problem. I struggled with my racing line, but the edge grip was never a problem. But yes, I think you are right. I saw Tom in the start area, and I believe he was using the older Rossi skis, probably something like 183/23. And most other racers around me were on older women FIS 183/23 skis, or on newer "cheater" models (e.g. 182/25), or on even shorter "retail" skis (e.g. 175/18). I think I saw only one racer on the 188/30 skis, with a pretty high bib number.

I am thinking about racing at Hunt Hollow and/or Swain later this season. Both are 2 hours away from me, but if the weather is good and my family is OK with it, I might go for it. I'll look you up or send you a message here if I decide to race there.

 

[Swede]

Well, not just Masters skiing, but also tennis. If I win, it's because I play well. If I lose, it's because of my racquet Seriously, though, your advice makes perfect sense. I think the benefit from training would be greater than from switching skis. In my first of the four runs, I was late all the time and was turning below the gates, losing time. In the remaining three runs, I tried to compensate for that, but probably end up turning too much above the gates. I think even just practicing a few times would help a lot, and if I can find a way to train regularly, it will be even better.

As I said before, I was told that there might be weekly Masters training at our hill, Greek Peak, next season. If that happens, I will definitely try to sign up. As far as coaching go, the person who told me about the possibility of Masters training won the Masters Nationals among women in all disciplines in 2018, so she must be pretty good. On a separate note, my older son will turn 6 this year, and we might sign him up for a race program at our hill. That might be another opportunity to meet good coaches.

Getting your kids in a race program can be a very good ”peek” into modern racing and get an update and a few hints.

 

[Johnny V.]

I am thinking about racing at Hunt Hollow and/or Swain later this season. Both are 2 hours away from me, but if the weather is good and my family is OK with it, I might go for it. I'll look you up or send you a message here if I decide to race there.

The Hunt Hollow race is nice-usually 4 runs GS. It's a fun hill and Mark Wolcott sets a good course. Swain is shorter and will have 2 runs GS an 2 runs slalom. Unless things change, I will be at Hunt Hollow-it's my birthday and I'm going to drag my daughter down to race also-see if she can finally beat the old man!

NY Masters is a good group and could use younger participation so any races you can make would be great. Lots of excellent racers including FIS International Champ Pepi Neubauer (he lives in Naples and skis at Bristol). Alex Mitchell should be a great coach if she runs a program at Greek Peak next year-she brings it on the course!

 

[SkiSpeed]

Alex is a great racer and person. Hope she coaches; if she does, sign-up and ski w/her.

 

[Hogar]

Hi, I have the same problem in deciding to choose the right ski for the FMC racing from my Atomic. I am 6.2" & 250lbs and two years ago used G9 RS 183/25 and last year I switched to G9 RS 190/27. This year I added G9 WC 188/30 as I got them used for the good price and I like them more because they are narrower than 190/27 and I think that they are even a bit softer than 190/27. Has anyone compared Atomic 190/27 with 188/30 and what are the opinions/suggestions which are better for a heavier skiers like me? Will moving the X VAR bindings to the front help turn the tighter FMC course? Thanks