Mountains with the best ski schools?

[Mike King]

Teaching advanced lessons is a very tricky business. Generally there are some fundamental flaws for which the advanced skier has learned to compensate well - he has become very good at bad skiing! Those flaws can only be corrected by intensive effort, directed by a skilled teacher, on low angle terrain. It’s pretty much impossible to learn new movement patterns on steep or bumped up terrain although, of course, band aids can be administered to help a skier handle these a bit better.

But what would likely happen if a skier enrolled in an advanced lesson is asked to spend the day really working on fundamentals on easy groomers? Not happy! Despite the certainty that this would actually do his skiing development far more good than any amount of thrashing around on double blacks and would, in fact, ultimately greatly improve his ability to ski advanced terrain. Add the reality that the large majority of instructors are themselves intermediate skiers without the technical background to coach at this level and we have a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Often you will find folk who show up for a Level 9 lesson who really are level 7 skiers -- I saw this all the time at Breckenridge, particularly in the Lesson Club. But still, the challenge to the instructor is to interview the group and find out what each individual wants to accomplish out of their time together. Coming up with a lesson plan that accommodates the expectations of the group is a real challenge, particularly in the advanced groups. Here in Aspen, the pro is expected to identify if the group is not compatible in either expectations or skiing and split the group with other pros or, if necessary, to call the coordinator and call in another instructor.

When I was a consumer of group lessons in Aspen, I almost always was in a group of 1 (e.g. a private for a group price) or 2.

Mike

 

[Wasatchman]

Thanks for the insights Chris V and Hard Days Night.

And to add a mountain to this thread for good ski school, I'll put forth Treble Cone in New Zealand. Amazing skiers/teachers from all over the world teaching there in what is their "offseason" at comparatively cheap prices by US standards, especially given the exchange rate.

Unfortunately, getting to New Zealand and accommodation in the nearby town of Wanaka, well that is expensive!

But if anyone gets an opportunity, I'd definitely recommend Treble Cone.

 

[MAB]

Teaching advanced lessons is a very tricky business. Generally there are some fundamental flaws for which the advanced skier has learned to compensate well - he has become very good at bad skiing! Those flaws can only be corrected by intensive effort, directed by a skilled teacher, on low angle terrain. It’s pretty much impossible to learn new movement patterns on steep or bumped up terrain although, of course, band aids can be administered to help a skier handle these a bit better.

But what would likely happen if a skier enrolled in an advanced lesson is asked to spend the day really working on fundamentals on easy groomers? Not happy! Despite the certainty that this would actually do his skiing development far more good than any amount of thrashing around on double blacks and would, in fact, ultimately greatly improve his ability to ski advanced terrain. Add the reality that the large majority of instructors are themselves intermediate skiers without the technical background to coach at this level and we have a recipe for dissatisfaction.

From my experience, it is also difficult because it works in the opposite direction, as well. I have a high tolerance for things like drilling on easy groomers, and whenever I take a lesson, particularly one where I sign up for a group but end up in a private, I let the instructor know that I want to improve my skiing and am happy to do whatever that takes. However, we always end up on some of the hardest terrain on the mountain and not by my choice. I think sometimes instructors get excited to ski with the advanced+ groups/privates because it means they can actually ski and have fun. Because of this, at least in my experience, band aid fixes get substituted for fundamental change. I always speak up and ask if we can go back to drilling or at least mixing it up, but things almost inevitably progress towards harder terrain again.

 

[Whumpf]

Steep and Deep camp at Jackson Hole was best instruction and best overall ski experience of my life.

 

[Wasatchman]

"It's possible the school got caught short of instructors the day of your lesson, and was aware of the risk of difficulties. This guy may have been thrown into a bad situation, in which case management should cut him some slack.

We talked to Snowbasin today and they are making it right for us. Supervisor was good about it and took the responsibility that he threw the instructor in there hoping he could handle it, but that clearly he wasn't able to, so they are making it right for us.

 

[tromano]

The best ski school is one you can afford multiple private lessons at with an instructor you trust.

 

[Josh Matta]

From my experience, it is also difficult because it works in the opposite direction, as well. I have a high tolerance for things like drilling on easy groomers, and whenever I take a lesson, particularly one where I sign up for a group but end up in a private, I let the instructor know that I want to improve my skiing and am happy to do whatever that takes. However, we always end up on some of the hardest terrain on the mountain and not by my choice. I think sometimes instructors get excited to ski with the advanced+ groups/privates because it means they can actually ski and have fun. Because of this, at least in my experience, band aid fixes get substituted for fundamental change. I always speak up and ask if we can go back to drilling or at least mixing it up, but things almost inevitably progress towards harder terrain again.

your my ideal student.

When you want to travel east look me up.

 

[HardDaysNight]

[QUOTE="It's possible the school got caught short of instructors the day of your lesson, and was aware of the risk of difficulties. This guy may have been thrown into a bad situation, in which case management should cut him some slack.

We talked to Snowbasin today and they are making it right for us. Supervisor was good about it and took the responsibility that he threw the instructor in there hoping he could handle it, but that clearly he wasn't able to, so they are making it right for us.[/QUOTE]

It’s obviously a good thing that the ski school is stepping up and, hopefully, giving you what you paid for in the first place. However, for every assertive consumer such as yourself there are many who would simply conclude that advanced lessons are a waste of time and money (they are not, given decent instructors) and not bother taking any more. And then the industry will wonder why more advanced skiers don’t take instruction, commission studies to figure it etc. when the answer is staring them in the face.

 

[Rod9301]

I don't get why we have level 1 and 2 instructors in the us.

Most other countries, certainly in Europe have one qualification only, pass the eurotest, pretty demanding.

 

[DonC]

For group lessons I've had good experiences with Alta's 2.5 hour afternoon clinics. Private lessons at various resorts have been mixed. Reading the above, I really do wish more of these had focused on drills on lower aspect terrain. As was mentioned, steep terrain reveals problems, but its not the place to work on correcting them. I'll definitely keep this in mind going forward as I feel like I haven't progressed that much over the past several years.

 

[dustyfog]

Having almost alway joined a group as an adult for the company and safe experience of big mountain unfamiliar terrain, and my kid always a few days in a group since he was very young, and he is very social, so likes other kids and gets along with folks anywhere, (best friend in Tignes was another kid who did not speak a word of English, only French and Italian, and kid from USofA only spoke English!) and taken private lessons often:
A broad swath of select people we skied with at many different mountains who we remember and often stay in touch to this day. Will mention kids instructors who go above and beyond and just incredible motivators and judges of ability and how to take a kid to rise to their potential beyond their experience
Great schools and awesome instructors with kids, cherished memories to this day with the hope to ski with them again:
Alta: Tom, Shelly
Aspen Highlands: Bob
Snowmass: Emilie
Whistler-Blackcomb: Denis
Sunshine Village: Adrian, Danielle
Snowbasin: Jim
Catamount: Marie (incredible Mountain Cats director), Chuck
Tignes-Val d'Isere: Patrice - ski school incredibly accommodating to visitors from across the pond. Frankly their system so heavy on advance bookings and rules-based left a marked impression of how genuinely nice they were to two visitors (non-French speakers to boot!). And this is one place where every kid is given a beacon to carry all the time. Guess the terrain dictates that.
Lech-Zurs: Klaus;

Some places give kids GPS trackers, I forget where right now, makes a parent feel better.

Note: Austrian ski school in Oberlech needed some intervention by good friend to get wrinkles ironed out when kid was in group lesson with level and language, and so indeed a crapshoot/lottery no doubt. They do have a reputation for 'losing kids' (just google it) so had to get friend to emphasize multiple times, do NOT lose my kid!

We have run into instructors on the rarest occasion with compatibility issues, and we are enthusiastic skiers, with a kid who once he gets going skis lift-open-to-close and in altitude terrain which we are not accustomed to, living at sea level. It can be a crapshoot.

 

[Chris V.]

I don't get why we have level 1 and 2 instructors in the us.

Most other countries, certainly in Europe have one qualification only, pass the eurotest, pretty demanding.

If you wanted all instructors to be
Level III qualified, you'd have to raise the pay quite a lot. That's a clear answer to the "why."

It's easier to train and test instructors on skiing than on teaching. Just because someone is a great skier it doesn't mean he's great at bringing about improvements in students. Focusing on high certification levels to the exclusion of other considerations may not be the best approach.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

This thread seems to be mostly West Coast centric, but I just have to share this. I'm doing my 8:30 private lesson today over on the magic carpet today and I look around, there are two other lessons out. All three instructors are on the PSIA-E Dev Team. I look to my left, and I see an Examiner friend taking his lesson up the lift. Every instructor in sight is Ed Staff. Stowe Mountain Resort. Pretty good odds that you will get an experienced instructor here. From the perspective of an instructor who wants to move up the ranks, it's a good place too. We got 6(?) guys onto Dev Team this year (we now have something like 30% of the team) and I don't even know how many have passed L2 and L3 this year.

 

[rickg]

Sounds like Snowmass is making it right for you. That is a sign of a ski school that cares.

My 2 cents.

I have had many lessons over the years, at small hills where I learned in Western PA, primarily 7 Springs, as well as group and semi private lessons at a variety of resorts in the west. Also took a 2 day extreme clinic at Whistler. If you eliminate all of the actual learning lessons from 30+ years ago, most of my upper level mid week group lessons have been quite good. As others have mentioned, mid week upper level group lessons are generally a good value as they could only be 2 or 3 others in the class.

Communication is key. Letting the ski school know when you sign up what you want to work on. If it is moguls, request an instructor who can help. As you develop you will find that you will respond better to a coaching approach rather than full blown classroom instruction. At least that has been my experience.

BTW, I once had a bad lesson with a mismatched instructor for a private with my daughter that I paid big bucks for. Like you I spoke to the ski school afterwards and they refunded most of the tab. I was good with that.

Rick G

 

[fatbob]

I don't get why we have level 1 and 2 instructors in the us.

Most other countries, certainly in Europe have one qualification only, pass the eurotest, pretty demanding.

Yeah no. Plenty of stagiares (apprentices) teaching to pad out the earnings of the senior pros. And a common complaint is that passing the Eurotest doesn't always mean a great sympathy for students or great teaching manner. A lot of the guys are inspirational but a lot of VERY good teachers are locked out from making a full time job of it. It would certainly change the look of the US instructor mkt as Eurotest is nigh on impossible for over 40s to pass without an intense racing background. Of course there are plenty of old lags who passed it as 20 year old young bucks yet still like to maintain the facade that it is essential for "safety" knowing they wouldn't have a hope in hell of passing if there was mandatory retesting.

 

[dean_spirito]

Taos or Aspen would be the obvious choices. Probably the best chances of lucking out with an incredible group lesson. That said, there are great instructors all over the place. Maybe at an obscure mountain that wasn't even on your radar. So ask around. Try to come up with some names of instructors that might meet your criteria and specific needs. If possible, travel to them.

 

[TonyPlush]

My first skiing experience was a never-ever group lesson at Keystone five years ago. As I've progressed, I find myself curious of what I could get out of a more advanced lesson.

What's been your experience with advanced ski lessons? And maybe more importantly, are there any mountains that have especially good deals on lessons?

The few places I've researched seem pretty expensive. But if there's gotta be a mountain somewhere that offers quality instruction, preferably with line skipping privileges at a reasonable price?

As a destination skier, it could make perfectly logical sense to alter my travel plans to find the best value on lessons.

Bumping this thread with my two advanced ski lesson experiences in the few years since...

2020 - Whitefish advanced group (private)
While purchasing my day tickets on the Whitefish website, I got a popup selling adult group lessons for a shocking $68. I'd never seen lessons that cheap before and decided to give it a shot. (I just checked today, and current group pricing is still only $100 for the afternoon.)

It was a Thursday afternoon, and there were hardly any beginners taking lessons, and let alone other advanced skiers. So, I ended up with a private lesson. They matched me up with a PSIA Level 3, who was fantastic. Granted, it was my first lesson ever, but the entire two hours was basically light-bulb moment after light bulb moment. He gave me tons of instruction on every single run, mixed up his approaches, and overall, provided an incredible amount of instruction in such a short time period. This totally changed my skiing, and I would not hesitate to fly back and book a private.

2022 - Schweitzer advanced group (private)
Schweitzer is also another place with cheap lessons - currently $80 for adult groups (half-day). Again, I booked on Thursday afternoon and again got a private. This time I requested a PSIA Level 3 and they provided.

I did not mesh with this instructor quite as well. It was a crappy weather day (rain/fog) and he seemed somewhat uninterested. He'd often ski the entire run without looking back at me once, and I was surprised when he pushed for a break in the lodge after less than an hour of instruction. He basically emphasized two main points and continued to repeat them the entire lesson, without elaborating further or tackling them in different ways. All that said, I still consider this a productive lesson, because I certainly remember those two points. They were items that I didn't cover in my previous lesson, so I doubt I'd have uncovered them on my own, and they continue to help my skiing to this day. So maybe there was a method to his madness...

If any advanced skiers are out there considering lessons, I'd highly encourage you to do so. I didn't get a chance to do any lessons this year, but I definitely think they'll be a routine part of my ski seasons moving forward.

 

[Sibhusky]

They matched me up with a PSIA Level 3, who was fantastic.

Got a name?

 

[TonyPlush]

Got a name?

Mike Johnson.

 

[TonyPlush]

I spent some time researching advanced lesson prices across various mountains recently. Pretty wild how much the prices differ.

Resort	Lesson Type	USD (.75:1)	Notes
Bogus Basin	Advanced Group (1 hour 45 min)	$69
Buck Hill	Private Lesson (60 minutes)	$75	60 minute lift ticket included
Big White	Black or Double Black Group (2 hour)	$75
Schweitzer	Advanced Group (Half Day)	$80
Fernie	Advanced Group (Half day PM)	$86
Castle Mountain	Private Lessons (1 hour)	$86	Increments up to 4 hours ($300 USD)
Panorama	4 max group (Half-day PM)	$90	Full day for $140 USD
Sunlight	Advanced Group (2 hour)	$95	$120 for lesson + lift ticket
Whitefish	Advanced Gorup (Half Day PM)	$100	Full day for $185
Sunshine Village	Level 5 (Black Diamond) PM	$101
Mt. Norquay	Advanced (2 hour clinic)	$104
Taos	Advanced Group (Half day)	$105
Sundance	Level 8-9 Group (2 hour)	$125
Beaver Mountain	Private Lesson (2 hour)	$140
Grand Targhee	Advanced Group (1-3:30 PM)	$149
Telluride	Max 5 perrson advanced (1-4 PM)	$150	$170 for lesson + lift ticket
Snowbird	Advanced Group (2.5 hour)	$155	Privates: $600 half day, $980 full day
Brundage	Private Lesson (90 min to 6 hours)	$180	Increments up to 6 hours ($429)
Powder Mountain	Full day guide, no instruction	$200
Snowbasin	Adult Group (All day - 10 to 3 PM)	$219	$289 for lesson + ticket + rental
Sun Peaks	Privates Only (2 hour 1:30 PM)	$231
Big Sky	Advanced Group (Half Day)	$235	Full day for $295
Lake Louise	Privates Only (2 hour)	$254
Alta	Privates Only (2 hour)	$290	Full day for $870
Fernie	Steep & Deep 2-day Camp	$299	Two days, 9 AM to 4 PM. 6 person group. Includes video & après. Select dates.
Aspen	Max 5 full day group (10 AM to 3 PM)	$324
Vail	Advanced Group (Full day)	$335
Jackson Hole	Advanced Group	$420
Araphoe Basin	Privates Only (3 hour)	$449	Flat rate for up to four people
Sun Valley	Privates Only (3 hour PM)	$499	Full day for $1,049
Park City	Privates Only (3 hour PM)	$929	Full day for $1,249 (!!!)

Also interesting that Telluride's lesson + lift ticket package is cheaper than the walk up lift ticket rates. (Window rate this Saturday is $219, whereas you could book a lesson with ticket for $170!)