Non-toe-release pin tech binding in bounds- Don't do it

[Rod9301]

I think everyone is overestimating the danger of breaking bones with pin bindings.

There are hundreds of thousands of skiers using them.

Personally, i had a few releases, when i should have.

 

[Philpug]

I think everyone is overestimating the danger of breaking bones with pin bindings.

There are hundreds of thousands of skiers using them.

Personally, i had a few releases, when i should have.

Maybe tens of thousands...

 

[jmeb]

Maybe tens of thousands...

I'd bet at least over a hundred. Maybe not several times that though. One Facebook group for the front range has over 10k members alone and I have to imagine it isn't everyone skiing tech bindings on the Front Range.

That said, the arguments for/against safety of pin bindings are from a design perspective. No one to my knowledge has collected significant epidemiological dataset indicating to what extent different injuries actually occur.

 

[jmeb]

I for one, do NOT, enjoy skiing my tech bindings on groomers in the resort. I can't say I'm a good enough skier to describe why I don't like them...they don't feel as comfortable when I have to lay the ski over but others may feel differently.

If I had to hazard a guess it'd be fore a few reasons (depend on which tech binding you're on)

- lack of elasticity in the toe and heel. You feel every bump. Like a sports car, you need some absorption of bumps to maximize speed, feel and control -- too much feedback is no good.
- floating boot sole and/or gap between boot and tower and/or play in the lateral release slop in the heel piece. All decrease power transmission and feel.

Skiing a Dynafit Speed Turn vs a Tecton feels far far more different than does a Tecton vs an alpine binding.

 

[SBrown]

If I had to hazard a guess it'd be fore a few reasons (depend on which tech binding you're on)

- lack of elasticity in the toe and heel. You feel every bump. Like a sports car, you need some absorption of bumps to maximize speed, feel and control -- too much feedback is no good.
- floating boot sole and/or gap between boot and tower and/or play in the lateral release slop in the heel piece. All decrease power transmission and feel.

Skiing a Dynafit Speed Turn vs a Tecton feels far far more different than does a Tecton vs an alpine binding.

That's it with me. Shifts fixed that. Also introduced another few issues, of course .... whack-a-mole

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I had a lesson client last year who was using some Black Diamond bindings with absolutely no release function at all last year. I did multiple lessons with him and decided that I should just pretend that I didn't see it. I asked a person in management about it and they said that as long as they have brakes or a runaway strap it was all good. I was still nervous the whole time every time. I'll bet @Dave Dodge knows who I am talking about too.

 

[jmeb]

Black Diamond bindings with absolutely no release function at all last year.

Tele bindings? Because every single tech binding I can think of BD sells has some release function. If only vertical release in the heel.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I could be wrong, it was something of this ilk - https://www.blackdiamondequipment.c...rand&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&start=4

 

[jmeb]

I could be wrong, it was something of this ilk - https://www.blackdiamondequipment.c...rand&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&start=4

That binding has both vertical and side release -- and can be bought in various release strengths. It's a rebranded Trofeo: https://www.atkbindings.com/en/prodotto/bindings/race-en/trofeo-en/ .

 

[locknload]

If I had to hazard a guess it'd be fore a few reasons (depend on which tech binding you're on)

- lack of elasticity in the toe and heel. You feel every bump. Like a sports car, you need some absorption of bumps to maximize speed, feel and control -- too much feedback is no good.
- floating boot sole and/or gap between boot and tower and/or play in the lateral release slop in the heel piece. All decrease power transmission and feel.

Skiing a Dynafit Speed Turn vs a Tecton feels far far more different than does a Tecton vs an alpine binding.

That's absolutely it. I'm speaking about the Kingpin. I also have a setup with the Shift and they feel great and very similar to my Alpine bindings on groomers. With the Kingpins, the feedback from the snow really does rattle up the ski and through my boots. Too much feedback is exactly the feeling...thanks for describing. Obviously, I didn't get them to ski groomers and don't generally plan to do that..but it was an interesting revelation. In any event, I like the Shifts so much, that I plan to dump my Kingpins anyway.

 

[Alexzn]

This is one of the reasons why I decided to accept the weight penalty of the Shifts.

 

[Slim]

Telemarkers are only just moving to Releaseable bindings. As @Rod9301 mentions, many, many people have been skiing tech bindings for a long, long time.
One thing to keep in mind is that, historically, that gear used low cut, not very stiff boots, on short, skinny skis.
With AT(and Tele) boots getting taller and stiffer, and skis getting wider and longer, the need for release-ability goes up.

It’s not a Yes or No, safe versus unsafe issue. The question is , which is safer. No binding is 100% safe.

Against that backdrop I think it is good to have this discussion and to alert people to the potential issues.

However, it is not nearly as simple as Cody Townsend, or @Dave Dodge make it sound in their interviews (and I am sure they know this).

One of the considerations for safety that has not been brought up yet in this discussion is the boot/binding interface. For those who didn’t follow it a few years ago, Jeff Campbell did some research concerning release testing of AT boots in alpine bindings, and limited tests in tech bindings.
He found a correlation between tech fittings and AT soles causing poor release. And , contrary to what you’d expect, sliding AFD’s and rollers in binding toepieces made it worse!
As far as I know, every binding with AT boot compatibility has both a sliding AFD and rollers in the toes!

In that respect, if you are using a full rubber AT sole boot, with fittings, a tech binding might offer better release.

On the other hand, he also confirmed that due to the pointed nature of tech bindings, tiny variations in binding or boot geometry (and wear), could have significant effects on release characteristics.

With the current rise in sale of AT gear, means it’s more likely to see AT gear being used inbounds, which means way more hours spend skiing, than in a pure human powered scenario.
It would be really nice if someone could do further research into AT and Gripwalk boot release from various bindings.


Then there is the fact, as @jmeb mentioned that. Shift, Duke PT, Tecton, Vipec and Skitrab Tr2 are all touring bindings with lateral release at the toe. So saying “touring binding” is very confusing.

 

[locknload]

This is one of the reasons why I decided to accept the weight penalty of the Shifts.

Exactly!

 

[ScottB]

It’s not a Yes or No, safe versus unsafe issue. The question is , which is safer. No binding is 100% safe.

Jeff Campbell did some research concerning release testing of AT boots in alpine bindings, and limited tests in tech bindings. He found a correlation between tech fittings and AT soles causing poor release. And , contrary to what you’d expect, sliding AFD’s and rollers in binding toepieces made it worse! As far as I know, every binding with AT boot compatibility has both a sliding AFD and rollers in the toes! In that respect, if you are using a full rubber AT sole boot, with fittings, a tech binding might offer better release.

I am sure a rubber "Touring std" sole will cause a alpine binding not approved for it to malfunction. Could that be part of the results. I would be shocked if a MNC alpine binding that is DIN certified for a Touring std sole will not work properly. I am not totally sure a MNC will accept a touring std sole, but I think they do. There are numerous combo's and its complicated. One thing for sure, a beat up rubber touring std sole can cause release issues.

On the other hand, he also confirmed that due to the pointed nature of tech bindings, tiny variations in binding or boot geometry (and wear), could have significant effects on release characteristics.

One thing for sure, a beat up rubber touring std sole can cause release issues. YUP, and pin wear can do the same thing.

Then there is the fact, as @jmeb mentioned that. Shift, Duke PT, Tecton, Vipec and Skitrab Tr2 are all touring bindings with lateral release at the toe. So saying “touring binding” is very confusing.

Agreed, I think pin binding is the more accurate way to put it, but you could call the shift, Duke a pin binding too, so I am out of suggestions.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Agreed, I think pin binding is the more accurate way to put it, but you could call the shift, Duke a pin binding too, so I am out of suggestions.

I wouldn't call the Duke a pin binding.

 

[jmeb]

I am sure a rubber "Touring std" sole will cause a alpine binding not approved for it to malfunction. Could that be part of the results. I would be shocked if a MNC alpine binding that is DIN certified for a Touring std sole will not work properly. I am not totally sure a MNC will accept a touring std sole, but I think they do. There are numerous combo's and its complicated. One thing for sure, a beat up rubber touring std sole can cause release issues.

The research @Slim is referencing tested exactly that so prepared to be shocked -- touring ISO soles on MNC certified bindings. And what he showed is that even that boots that meet the DIN standard that is approved for use in MNC certified bindings have unreliable release.

You can get access to most of his work here: https://jeffcampbellengineering.com/publications . In particular, it's the work done in his dissertation: https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/38177

 

[ScottB]

I wouldn't call the Duke a pin binding.

Doesn't the Duke (PT intended) have pins for the uphill, like the shift?? If there is a "Duke" no PT I did not mean that one.

 

[Mike Rogers]

Yeah, the new Duke is like the CAST system.

 

[Wilhelmson]

This makes choosing a mask easy.

 

[James]

This makes choosing a mask easy.

Which one?...