North American Ski Travel in the Post-Covid World

[Tony S]

@Philpug mentioned in a chairlift conversation last week that he thought travel was "an issue," in a way it didn't use to be, when it comes to skiing generally and to the national gathering in particular. This is an interesting topic that I see others have been thinking about as well.

It's top of mind for me partly because it just took me 18 hours and significant unexpected expense and hassle to get from the Aspen gathering back to my home in southern Maine. Some of this was due to objective hazards (weather) but much was also attributable to what I would describe as a misalignment between the promise of self-service Internet technologies and the ability of businesses to back it up with customer friendly policies and with humans who are willing and able to execute on those policies.

Here's an example of the upside of the "promise." A cascading series of snafus meant that I landed in Boston instead of in Portland, Maine where my own car was parked. Further snafus caused me to miss the last bus from Logan to Portland. I pulled out my phone and reserved a one way car rental with Avis in about three minutes. When I finally got to the rental garage, my car was sitting there in the first slot with the key in it, waiting for me. No paperwork, no obnoxious agent wasting my time trying to upsell me crap. It was almost magical. Yay.

The downside when staffing and business models don't support the promise ...

Avis sensibly does not let you reserve a car for a time when the renting agency is closed. (Duh.) I had a reservation at the Aspen airport for 8:00am, which is when they open, according to the Avis site. My plan was to drive from ASE to DIA, to get my Southwest flight home. (SW does not serve Aspen, and I needed to fly on points to afford the trip.)

So there I am at the Avis desk at 8:00am and ... nothing. No one home. Hertz guy: "They don't open till nine. Doesn't matter what your reservation says." Great. So this is obviously a thing.

Finally at about 8:30 a woman arrives to open up the desk. At this point I'm on the phone with Avis trying to figure out what's going on. She overhears me say "Oh, here's someone now," at which point she immediately barks at me, "I don't open till nine and calling the eight hundred number to tattle on me is not going to win you any points if you want a car this morning!"

Okay then.

Me, in what I hope is a level tone: "So why was I able to make an 8:00 reservation?"

Her (in extreme accusation of my obvious incompetence): "Well you must have made it months ago then!"

Of course I had. Silly me. I'm just going to sit here really quietly now and hope for pity.

The upshot was that my day started an hour behind right out of the gate, because Avis Left Hand is not talking to Avis Right Hand. If there is a big giant red Avis sign over the desk it shouldn't be up to me to have to negotiate between corporate and a franchise holder. As @mdf says, "I'm a customer who wants a car, not a reporter researching a story for the Wall Street Journal."

The bottom line is that it may not matter how "convenient" your destination is. It's as likely as not that travel will turn out to be a huge cluster. With this in mind, @DanoT 's question below seems like a good one. If travel is going to be an expensive pain no matter what, why not go somewhere that will NOT be, once you get there?

Another point has to do with lodging expenses. Remote areas where winter is high season and the rich and famous have descended are almost prohibitive at this point for middle class folks like me. @KevinF scored us a great condo deal in Snowmass, but it was still close to double the amount I've paid to stay in downtown Taos, for example. Big Sky is now getting to be like Aspen in this respect.

One day US skiers will discover that ALL of the resorts in western Canada not named Whistler, are not crowded. If you had to ask yourself what would you rather do: spend more time getting to and from a resort or get there quicker but spend more time in lift lines during your ski vacation; the answer should be good for ski resorts in the western Canada interior.

Edit: I would include Schweitzer and Whitefish in the above assessment as they are both near Canada and thus require a bit more traveling to get to for most people and they are big uncrowded western resorts.

 

[mdf]

There is definitely a trade off. Everyone's balance point for time and money vs great uncrowded terrain will be different. For me, the added expense of Aspen was painful but not really an issue. (And I was able to trade money for time and effort on the travel. Flying direct to ASE is easy [at least for those of us who got lucky] but more expensive.) For others, it might make the difference between being able to afford to attend or not.

That said, I do NOT want to go somewhere that is going to be crowded on the hill.

Edit to add: I would consider a long travel day to get to a remote Canadian resort worth it, provided it does not include too long a drive. The 2.5 hours between ABQ and El Prado (Taos) is about my limit -- I get too sleepy to be safe when driving longer than that.

 

[Drahtguy Kevin]

This is an excellent post, @Tony S. Things that seem simple are often the largest pain in the ass. I recently went skiing in Uzbekistan, a place not known (yet) for it’s skiing. My biggest troubles getting my gear on the plane occurred at Denver International Airport, a place that handles hundreds of skiers coming and going daily.

As to @DanoT’s point, my trip made me realize I’ll take a few issues and hassle getting to a destination for uncrowned lifts and skiing.

 

[Philpug]

This years Gathering was about half of what Gatherings have been in the past. From feedback we have heard, there were numerous reasons for that, cost, location, travel restrictions. Anything else? Does anyone want to expand of any of these?

 

[mdf]

This years Gathering was about half of what Gatherings have been in the past.

Is that really true? My impression is that historically only about 50% of the people on the roll call actually attend. This year it was 95% by my counting.

 

[Philpug]

Is that really true? My impression is that historically only about 50% of the people on the roll call actually attend. This year it was 95% by my counting.

We have had Gatherings with 100, Utah for example, either way but it was less than in the past.

 

[Tony S]

That said, I do NOT want to go somewhere that is going to be crowded on the hill.

Totally agree.

Everyone's balance point for time and money vs great uncrowded terrain will be different. For me, the added expense of Aspen was painful but not really an issue. (And I was able to trade money for time and effort on the travel. Flying direct to ASE is easy [at least for those of us who got lucky] but more expensive.) For others, it might make the difference between being able to afford to attend or not.

I'm trying to process the convenience / expense balance overall for my week. It certainly cost significantly more than I expected or budgeted. Part of me realizes that it still cost me less than if I'd forked over the $1,200 to fly into ASE. Another part recognizes that in the end the net price difference was more like $600 or $700, which might have been worth it for hassle avoidance, as you point out. Yet another sees that if I HAD paid for the expensive flight I'd probably have ended up stuck in Chicago for a day with KevinF and REALLY been pissed off.

No matter how I slice it, my budget wasn't up to the reality of the trip under contemporary circumstances, which is where I suspect I'm not alone.

 

[mdf]

We have had Gatherings with 100, Utah for example, either way but it was less than in the past.

Yeah, that last Utah Gathering was huge. But I think that was an outlier on the other side.

 

[tromano]

The mini in taos was well attended. We opted for that due to economics and me wanting to do a ski week. We will consider if we will be going back to Taos next winter or the national gathering, depending on location. Can't really do two weeks with the fam in one winter. The kids miss too much school and devo team. Also the cost.

 

[scott43]

I don't think we're actually in the post COVID world yet. At least not here. We still have labour shortages and modified hours from lockdown and people just plain nervous about going back out in public. I expect we'll see higher airfares as a result of inflation and fuel surcharges shortly. So it likely won't get better for a bit.

 

[Philpug]

So it likely won't get better for a bit.

IMHO that is part of the discussion here.

 

[newboots]

I don't think we're actually in the post COVID world yet

I'm not in the post-Covid world. Just came home from the PSIA Women's Summit at Stowe and two days later, tested positive for Covid.

 

[newboots]

Regarding Phil's question - I would love to go to a Gathering out West. The cost is prohibitive, though. I'll be going to the NE Gathering in April (barring monsoons). Traveling in New England means cheap lodging (I can stay with friends here and there, and at @Phelmut 's ski club for the Gathering), driving vs. flying, and familiar travel details (no nasty Avis ladies).

It won't have to be that cheap to get me out West, but when I've researched lodging costs and when there's no public transportation from a hotel or condo to the resort, the total can get too high.

 

[bbinder]

This years Gathering was about half of what Gatherings have been in the past. From feedback we have heard, there were numerous reasons for that, cost, location, travel restrictions. Anything else? Does anyone want to expand of any of these?

For me, uncertainty about travel has been the determining factor. Last year, we did not travel much at all. This year, we are staying for 2 months in SLC and a big factor for committing to this trip was the cancellation policy of the place we are staying: we would have been able to cancel up to 72 hours prior to arrival. This was a big comfort to us as we were planning a potential trip. Airbn, resort hotels, resort condos, VRBO, are not nearly as generous. I suspect that if/when COVID becomes less of an issue, many people will feel more comfortable making travel plans.

The cost vs convenience factor is a whole other issue. I suspect that costs will rise and inconveniences will mount up in the foreseeable future. Hopefully, technology and human service will come to a happy medium when/if labor shortages become less of a problem. It seems that, in today’s world, having a good service experience depends greatly on luck. And that sucks.

While @Tony S ’s recent experience sounds like a real clusterf**k, travel during the winter has always been a roll of the dice for me. I have had my share of diversions, being stuck in/near an airport for 24 hours due to delays, getting bumped off flights, having my rental car reservation being at an agency hundred of miles from where I flew into, you name it. I’ve been lucky to encounter decent customer service along the way, and encountered decent advice in order to minimize issues. (I never fly into ASE - for years, I have been flying into Eagle/Vail and renting a car. Even with the car rental, the cost was lower, the routes were better, the airport more reliable. Maybe it is different now.)

As to where to go, I agree that it may be a good idea to think outside the box and consider alternative destinations for the Gathering. I think that @Philpug and @Tricia ’s initial idea of rotating among 4 destinations was great: we had enough variety over the years but could develop some ”insider” knowledge of a place. Maybe we try something different for a year and see how it goes. It would be a good idea to keep in mind that travel to a less traveled destination would have its own pros and cons (there is a good reason why I have gone to Whistler once (traveling fro Boston) and will likely never go back again: an 11-12 hour travel day without complications is too much for me).

 

[Andy Mink]

After hearing the stories of lost skis, boots, and other luggage, plus the CF that was @KevinF's trip out and @Tony S's trip back, I honestly wonder what is really going on in the air travel world. @ADKmel had a similar travel hassle not too long ago.

 

[VickieH]

I'm not a Gathering person, in general, but the data aspect, the trend (if there is one) set my brain in motion.

My first thought is -- has there been a shift in which gathering people attend? The first Taos gathering was small. Previous NEGs consisted of a handful of people. Those have both grown considerably. Are the attendees at all gatherings combined the same, but people have shifted where they go? I expect that would account for a percentage of the change and is related to @tromano's post.

For the remainder -- that is, people who are active on the forum and attended the main gathering previously but don't attend any gathering now -- it might be worthwhile to message them privately to solicit their feedback. (Yeah, that sounds like a survey -- and I despise customer feedback surveys.) Maybe just encourage them in this thread to privately message someone if they don't want to post publicly.

Another possibility is location fatigue. Having a set rotation has some benefits, but if people are attending because of their personal bucket list, a given mountain may be a once-and-done for them. Was there a drop-off in attendance when the locations started repeating?

Epic pass discounts -- did the low cost entice people to buy Epic instead of Ikon passes this season?

Of course, Covid is a factor. But it will be a long time before we'll know how much it affected things -- if we're ever able to tease out direct effects vs. temporary impact vs. business opportunity.

 

[Tricia]

For me, uncertainty about travel has been the determining factor. Last year, we did not travel much at all. This year, we are staying for 2 months in SLC and a big factor for committing to this trip was the cancellation policy of the place we are staying: we would have been able to cancel up to 72 hours prior to arrival. This was a big comfort to us as we were planning a potential trip. Airbn, resort hotels, resort condos, VRBO, are not nearly as generous. I suspect that if/when COVID becomes less of an issue, many people will feel more comfortable making travel plans.

The cost vs convenience factor is a whole other issue. I suspect that costs will rise and inconveniences will mount up in the foreseeable future. Hopefully, technology and human service will come to a happy medium when/if labor shortages become less of a problem. It seems that, in today’s world, having a good service experience depends greatly on luck. And that sucks.

While @Tony S ’s recent experience sounds like a real clusterf**k, travel during the winter has always been a roll of the dice for me. I have had my share of diversions, being stuck in/near an airport for 24 hours due to delays, getting bumped off flights, having my rental car reservation being at an agency hundred of miles from where I flew into, you name it. I’ve been lucky to encounter decent customer service along the way, and encountered decent advice in order to minimize issues. (I never fly into ASE - for years, I have been flying into Eagle/Vail and renting a car. Even with the car rental, the cost was lower, the routes were better, the airport more reliable. Maybe it is different now.)

As to where to go, I agree that it may be a good idea to think outside the box and consider alternative destinations for the Gathering. I think that @Philpug and @Tricia ’s initial idea of rotating among 4 destinations was great: we had enough variety over the years but could develop some ”insider” knowledge of a place. Maybe we try something different for a year and see how it goes. It would be a good idea to keep in mind that travel to a less traveled destination would have its own pros and cons (there is a good reason why I have gone to Whistler once (traveling fro Boston) and will likely never go back again: an 11-12 hour travel day without complications is too much for me).

All of these things are being considered while thinking about where we're going in the coming years.
Things are different than they were back in 2018 when we voted on going to Big Sky, Jackson Hole and Aspen after Utah.
Before that we did it based on Mountain Collective, but that was the year that Alterra became a thing and it made sense to move to IKON passes for destinations.
It also helped to have the same week and know the destinations because a lot of people needed to put in for vacation time with work (four letter word). Much of that may have changed for jobs after covid job changes.

Meet Alterra Mountain Company

KSL (Squaw) and Henry Crown Co (Aspen) who acquired Mammoth and it's holdings have just announced the name of their new conglomerate. Alterra Mountain Company. Official Release: January 11, 2018 10:15 AM Eastern Standard Time DENVER--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The joint venture of affiliates of KSL...

www.skitalk.com

I remember going to SIA in February 2018 when IKON was announced, and SIA/OR was still a huge trade show.
That trade show is a shell of itself. Maybe travel becomes so cost prohibitive for some folks that we concentrate more on regional GTGs.

This is definitely a moving target.

 

[Tricia]

I'm not a Gathering person, in general, but the data aspect, the trend (if there is one) set my brain in motion.

My first thought is -- has there been a shift in which gathering people attend? The first Taos gathering was small. Previous NEGs consisted of a handful of people. Those have both grown considerably. Are the attendees at all gatherings combined the same, but people have shifted where they go? I expect that would account for a percentage of the change and is related to @tromano's post.

For the remainder -- that is, people who are active on the forum and attended the main gathering previously but don't attend any gathering now -- it might be worthwhile to message them privately to solicit their feedback. (Yeah, that sounds like a survey -- and I despise customer feedback surveys.) Maybe just encourage them in this thread to privately message someone if they don't want to post publicly.

Another possibility is location fatigue. Having a set rotation has some benefits, but if people are attending because of their personal bucket list, a given mountain may be a once-and-done for them. Was there a drop-off in attendance when the locations started repeating?

Epic pass discounts -- did the low cost entice people to buy Epic instead of Ikon passes this season?

Of course, Covid is a factor. But it will be a long time before we'll know how much it affected things -- if we're ever able to tease out direct effects vs. temporary impact vs. business opportunity.

First, let me say, I missed seeing you and I looked for you this past week.

We really haven't been repeating. We've done the 4 ski locations once so far.

Is it possible that the gathering should be doing something different since we've completed the 4 locations?
Perhaps.
We as a community of Gathering folks need to sort this out before nailing down next year's location.

 

[Tony S]

(no nasty Avis ladies)

The interesting thing here is that I don't think she was truly nasty. I think she was reacting in frustration to EXACTLY the thing that makes ME most crazy at MY workplace, which is being given the responsibility to do something well that I don't have the authority to do well.

This is the backstory about staffing in the current world of business that informs this whole thread. The anomie that results makes life miserable for everyone.

In the old days Avis Lady might have been able to perform some kind of manual override on a paper form that would have solved the issue. And she might have been recognized and rewarded for her attention to service in so doing. Now she is a victim of "metrics." "What is the mean turnover time for a customer encounter at the Aspen franchise, by ticket agent?"

 

[newboots]

I see your point. But it kind of sounded like she was threatening your with blocking or delaying your access to a car. I cringed!