Seriously, what's wrong with people?

[François Pugh]

What rules?

The legal ones, i.e. the ones that are written down in the acts and regulations (including the Idaho stop law if your jurisdiction has that law). That would be good.

 

[Rich McP]

That is interesting, but it seems like the cyclist want it both ways. They want cycle rules and car laws for cars only.

You seem to have missed my point (or to be fair, I failed to be clear)...bikes and motor vehicles are different. Laws that acknowledge those differences appropriately are better than laws that try to (and are failing at it) treat them the same (because they already aren't treated the same).

 

[oldschoolskier]

You seem to have missed my point (or to be fair, I failed to be clear)...bikes and motor vehicles are different. Laws that acknowledge those differences appropriately are better than laws that try to (and are failing at it) treat them the same (because they already aren't treated the same).

 

[oldschoolskier]

I’m going to suggest that there are only thirteen laws that we should worry about. Newtons 3 laws of which most apply here for safety, and one other (of the other ten) Treat others as you want to be treated. The rest is whimsical BS.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

You ever see the laws from when cars were new on the road? Stop the car at the intersection, shine a lantern down the road in all directions and fire a gun three times in the air before crossing. Just do that and we should all be fine.

 

[jt10000]

As serious as a heart attack. Because you weren't in the car with me that day. I have to ask you, don't you think actions have consequences?

If that cyclist is responsible in some way for nearly giving you a heart attack (i'm laughing at the idea), then there are hundreds of thousands or even millions of drivers responsible for doing the same thing to pedestrians and cyclists every single day.

There is simply no comparison between the actual danger and also fear that drivers/cars inflict on non-motorized road users and the fear the non-motorized users inflict (I'm trying not to laugh writing that word "inflict") on drivers.

Every attempt to "both sides" this topic misses the reality - drivers kill and injure orders of magnitude more people than cyclists, and our over-reliance on cars is a massive, destructive force in our society. It's literally one of the major causes of death, injury and even illness (though pollution and and other causes) in our society. To say nothing about the extent to which too many/bad roads and excess parking lots wreck communities, make it unsafe for kids to play in many places, contribute to noise pollution, and contribute to man-made climate change (both in terms of heat and flooding), even at the local level.

But yeah, cyclists sometime scare drivers......LOL.

 

[jt10000]

You ever see the laws from when cars were new on the road? Stop the car at the intersection, shine a lantern down the road in all directions and fire a gun three times in the air before crossing. Just do that and we should all be fine.

Worth looking at this, about drivers and pedestrians and the origins of the concept of "jaywalking."

 

[oldschoolskier]

If that cyclist is responsible in some way for nearly giving you a heart attack (i'm laughing at the idea), then there are hundreds of thousands or even millions of drivers responsible for doing the same thing to pedestrians and cyclists every single day.

There is simply no comparison between the actual danger and also fear that drivers/cars inflict on non-motorized road users and the fear the non-motorized users inflict (I'm trying not to laugh writing that word "inflict") on drivers.

Every attempt to "both sides" this topic misses the reality - drivers kill and injure orders of magnitude more people than cyclists, and our over-reliance on cars is a massive, destructive force in our society. It's literally one of the major causes of death, injury and even illness (though pollution and and other causes) in our society. To say nothing about the extent to which too many/bad roads and excess parking lots wreck communities, make it unsafe for kids to play in many places, contribute to noise pollution, and contribute to man-made climate change (both in terms of heat and flooding), even at the local level.

But yeah, cyclists sometime scare drivers......LOL.

Read the whole thread included those postings by cyclists complaining about poor cyclists behavior.

Most of the problems of near misses are caused by mistakes and assumptions of pedestrians and cyclists misjudging laws of physics. Not arguing that some drivers are just as ignorant but it is a road way for vehicles that are less nimble, bigger, faster and slower to stop.

What is funny is that pedestrians complain about cyclists the same as cyclists complain about cars and cyclists say pedestrians are not watching where they are going (texting while walking). See the point here!

No matter what you think or want to believe even if you are right, if you don’t grasp these simple life saving concepts (of ensuring your own safety by assuming that the other more massive vehicle can’t stop), your chances of becoming a statistic greatly improve in a negative sense.

As to pollution, thats another issue, but be careful of what you wish for as it may not result in what you expect, think big picture and its impact beyond what you see and expect.

 

[jt10000]

Most of the problems of near misses are caused by mistakes and assumptions of pedestrians and cyclists misjudging laws of physics.

Maybe that's true on "near misses" but on hits, where it has been studied, it's not true. Drivers say that. Police, who live in cars, say that. But studies don't back that us. At best it's unclear. In my city, when we include pedestrians, it's clear: drivers are at fault the most. And over and over we see stories of pedestrians and cyclists being killed by drivers where the initial reports blame the ped/cyclist (due to the driver being the surviving witness and pro-driver bias in the police) and a more detailed investigation shows otherwise

What is funny is that pedestrians complain about cyclists the same as cyclists complain about cars and cyclists say pedestrians are not watching where they are going (texting while walking). See the point here!

Well, earlier I wrote:

And at a fundamental level, the more inherently dangerous something is, the more responsibility the user has to being careful. So drivers should be more careful than cyclists who should be more careful than pedestrians. Truck divers even more so. Places more so. Big planes more so. This is basic.

(texting while walking). See the point here!

Texting while walking? So what? Pedestrians don't hit and kill people.

Sure it's annoying as a driver or cyclist to have to watch out for that, but pedestrians do not hit people and kill them, so they have the least responsibility toward others on roads in terms of danger. This is fundamental. I'll say it again: the less dangerous something is to others, the less restricted it should be. Conversely, the more dangerous the more responsibility they have. If cyclists want to punch down and claim pedestrians have as much responsibility as they do, they just don't get it.

I am annoyed when pedestrians wander in front of me from texting or whatever when I'm riding. But they are not actually the danger - I should give space. I can complain about them being disrespectful (perhaps as you in a car complain about cyclists being "in your way") but in a collision it's largely on me (unless the pedestrians, cyclists, whatever does something really radical). A cyclist swerving to avoid a pothole is not radical - that's common. A pedestrian "suddenly" stopping to watch a Tiktok or turning to talk to a friend is not radical. Faster/bigger users have to be ready for that.

So perhaps drivers and cyclists have comparable responsibility for annoyance. Maybe. I don't think so, but that's interesting. But danger? Actual injury and death? No comparison. Not even close.

As to pollution, thats another issue, but be careful of what you wish for as it may not result in what you expect, think big picture and its impact beyond what you see and expect.

What? More walkable towns and cities, better mass transit inside them and between them, cleaner air and soil, less flooding, better public health, safer streets. Cars are killing us in so many ways and you're so used to it you think it's normal.

 

[Bill Talbot]

What makes some drivers feel like they need physical threats against cyclists who have done nothing to them, in fact, nothing wrong at all? Today the offender was a 90s or 00s Suburban. Went by me tight with his right wheels in the painted bike path. I know he was watching me, because when I flipped him off he did a hard swerve further right covering the whole painted bike path. I was expecting him to stop and confront me for hurting his delicate feelings by flipping him off. I guess he felt that showing me that he could kill me if he wanted to was all he needed to do. My parting message to him? GFY!

I'd say your actions made a bad situation worse.

 

[Wendy]

How is a cyclist not being able to clip out well as hazard to others? Are there instances of cyclists hurting people that way?

Exactly, it’s only a hazard to the cyclist if the driver behind them is impatient and/or entitled.

 

[Wendy]

I don't care much. Here is the reality - cars are killing us. By hitting people, by pollution, by increasing the cost of housing, by ending green spaces.

To get into a discussion about some cyclists being assholes is a distraction from the fundamental issue - our society (US and Canada for sure) is grotequely biased in favor of cars that cyclists doing the slightest version of what drivers always do (get in each others way, take up space, kill people) is outrageous.

Here's a photo of drivers taking up space, blocking entire lanes. It happens in Toronto and Ottawa just like happen where I live. And this photo is on a road just for them! WTF? Loot at it!

And this is on a shared road in downtown Ottawa! It's nuts. It's killing us.

I never heard of a cyclist or pedestrian killing a driver. Maybe that's just me.

AMEN!

 

[wiread]

If you're in a car, you have the ultimate responsibility. I get annoyed if a Cyclist zips thru a stop sign in front of me, but then it's their life at risk, not mine. and Like I always tell me kids on their own bikes, in learning responsibility in how to behave while driving anything, if you're driving close enough to something to be able to hit it, you better be driving in a way that you can avoid it in the blink of any eye.

I'm not even that old and maybe it's because of where I grew up, but behind the wheel you're basically responsible for everything. Yes, even the car zipping along in a fast lane and someone pulls out in front of them. Saw one from a dash cam, traffic stopped in the right 2 lanes and this guy zipping along at 65 in his truck in the left because it was open. car pulled out and he nailed them and he was pissed. 2 things, you don't drive 65 next to stopped traffic without significant room let alone being blocked in by concrete construction barriers. and 2, I could tell from the video exactly which car was going to do it, they usually always give signs, the way the head turns. and yes you can see it. Can almost always at least see the silhouette and a dead still one isn't much threat, the ones that are moving are either distracted in their own car or looking for a way out. brake lights are a sign, slight turns of front wheels etc. Of course all that is more difficult to ascertain when traffic is stopped and you're going 65mph with nowhere to go should something happen. But it's not an uncommon feeling that the person just cruising along is at no fault these days, even if they're doing 80 and staring at a cellphone. There isn't supposed to be anything in their way...

 

[Uncle-A]

If that cyclist is responsible in some way for nearly giving you a heart attack (i'm laughing at the idea), then there are hundreds of thousands or even millions of drivers responsible for doing the same thing to pedestrians and cyclists every single day.

There is simply no comparison between the actual danger and also fear that drivers/cars inflict on non-motorized road users and the fear the non-motorized users inflict (I'm trying not to laugh writing that word "inflict") on drivers.

Every attempt to "both sides" this topic misses the reality - drivers kill and injure orders of magnitude more people than cyclists, and our over-reliance on cars is a massive, destructive force in our society. It's literally one of the major causes of death, injury and even illness (though pollution and and other causes) in our society. To say nothing about the extent to which too many/bad roads and excess parking lots wreck communities, make it unsafe for kids to play in many places, contribute to noise pollution, and contribute to man-made climate change (both in terms of heat and flooding), even at the local level.

But yeah, cyclists sometime scare drivers......LOL.

Yes, the thought of killing a cyclist does scare the hell out of me. It probably scared many drivers. It is unfortunate that you don't think it is real.

 

[jt10000]

Yes, the thought of killing a cyclist does scare the hell out of me. It probably scared many drivers. It is unfortunate that you don't think it is real.

Your fear is your own and that's legit. But I can't help but scoff at the idea of it a cyclist being at fault for precipitating a heart attack. And trying to relate the fear of dying that so many people have riding with the fear of killing that conscientious drivers may have. Plus, you know, the actual dying is a thing for cyclists and pedestrians and even people in cars. From drivers.

In any case, if your heart is that weak and almost killing someone is scary enough to kill you, don't drive. Really - don't get behind the wheel. You're not safe to other people to be driving while that physically fragile. All sort of other stuff could have you lose control of that high speed big object you're using.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Maybe that's true on "near misses" but on hits, where it has been studied, it's not true. Drivers say that. Police, who live in cars, say that. But studies don't back that us. At best it's unclear. In my city, when we include pedestrians, it's clear: drivers are at fault the most. And over and over we see stories of pedestrians and cyclists being killed by drivers where the initial reports blame the ped/cyclist (due to the driver being the surviving witness and pro-driver bias in the police) and a more detailed investigation shows otherwise


Well, earlier I wrote:



Texting while walking? So what? Pedestrians don't hit and kill people.

Sure it's annoying as a driver or cyclist to have to watch out for that, but pedestrians do not hit people and kill them, so they have the least responsibility toward others on roads in terms of danger. This is fundamental. I'll say it again: the less dangerous something is to others, the less restricted it should be. Conversely, the more dangerous the more responsibility they have. If cyclists want to punch down and claim pedestrians have as much responsibility as they do, they just don't get it.

I am annoyed when pedestrians wander in front of me from texting or whatever when I'm riding. But they are not actually the danger - I should give space. I can complain about them being disrespectful (perhaps as you in a car complain about cyclists being "in your way") but in a collision it's largely on me (unless the pedestrians, cyclists, whatever does something really radical). A cyclist swerving to avoid a pothole is not radical - that's common. A pedestrian "suddenly" stopping to watch a Tiktok or turning to talk to a friend is not radical. Faster/bigger users have to be ready for that.

So perhaps drivers and cyclists have comparable responsibility for annoyance. Maybe. I don't think so, but that's interesting. But danger? Actual injury and death? No comparison. Not even close.

What? More walkable towns and cities, better mass transit inside them and between them, cleaner air and soil, less flooding, better public health, safer streets. Cars are killing us in so many ways and you're so used to it you think it's normal.

I agree public transit should be greatly improved, however, until then we have a problem and don’t blame the cars for that.

I blame bicycles because most are manufactured in Asia and shipped across the ocean with huge polluting ships, maybe you pay a premium for a locally lower carbon foot print bike and bike parts?

 

[oldschoolskier]

@jt10000, just want to confirm drivers need to be clairvoyant to understand when cyclists decide to cut in front of them to avoid a pot hole we can’t see.

Pedestrians that txt and walk forget to look before they step into traffic, that is the issue.

Point is take responsibility for your actions, you cut into my lane and get flattened, that’s on you, I don’t wait for you and hit you that’s on me. Everyone follows the same rules.

Dash cams are a wonderful thing.

Finally stop trying to justify a few poor cyclist behaviors, it is about treating each other equally, if not the small and lighter always loses, even if they are right, be it Person, Cyclists, Car, Truck, Transport. Don’t be that jerk in any of them!

 

[Lauren]

I thought of this thread yesterday while coming into my neighborhood. I (driving) passed a father riding bikes with his two kids (6 and 8-ish), one kid on the sidewalk, one on the street following their dad on the wrong side of the road (all three moving in the same direction as me). Just after passing them, I pulled up to a 4-way stop about to turn left. I stopped and looked in my driver side mirror...sure enough the three of them were flying up the street behind me. They didn't even pause or look, flew right past me on my left, on the wrong side of the road, through the intersection without an acknowledgement that they were doing anything wrong. Were they wrong...yes. This does not remove my responsibility as a driver to avoid them. If I turned left right after I stopped and required them to slam on their brakes, would I be in the wrong...no...I had the right of way. Would I be fulfilling my responsibility as a driver, no.

Now this is not that big of a deal in my neighborhood...super small streets, lots of pedestrians so defensive driving is always necessary. But the point being, they were obviously in the wrong here, but I still have a responsibility to not hit them.

Having a personal responsibility does not impact or take away from someone else's responsibility. Having that responsibility also does not automatically mean it's your fault or you are in the wrong if something happens. I have the responsibility as a driver to obey the road laws, react to my surroundings, and avoid collision to the best of my ability (defensive driving). This responsibility does not take away from a cyclists responsibility to ride safely, react to their surroundings and obey the laws of the road.

 

[cantunamunch]

I thought of this thread yesterday while coming into my neighborhood. I (driving) passed a father riding bikes with his two kids (6 and 8-ish), one kid on the sidewalk, one on the street following their dad on the wrong side of the road (all three moving in the same direction as me). Just after passing them, I pulled up to a 4-way stop about to turn left. I stopped and looked in my driver side mirror...sure enough the three of them were flying up the street behind me. They didn't even pause or look, flew right past me on my left, on the wrong side of the road, through the intersection without an acknowledgement that they were doing anything wrong. Were they wrong...yes.

What is it about casual bike riders in the NE and riding against traffic? Every time my nephew comes down from MA I have to spend a week getting him to stay on his side of the road. And his father is worse.

I blame bad pedestrian habits - that just had a bicycle put under them.

This does not remove my responsibility as a driver to avoid them. ..... Would I be fulfilling my responsibility as a driver, no.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

@jt10000, just want to confirm drivers need to be clairvoyant to understand when cyclists decide to cut in front of them to avoid a pot hole we can’t see.

Pedestrians that txt and walk forget to look before they step into traffic, that is the issue.

Point is take responsibility for your actions, you cut into my lane and get flattened, that’s on you, I don’t wait for you and hit you that’s on me. Everyone follows the same rules.

Dash cams are a wonderful thing.

Finally stop trying to justify a few poor cyclist behaviors, it is about treating each other equally, if not the small and lighter always loses, even if they are right, be it Person, Cyclists, Car, Truck, Transport. Don’t be that jerk in any of them!

If you give them enough room you won’t need clairvoyance. This isn’t hard.