The Never-Ending Zipfit Discussion

[Noodler]

Dear @Noodler , thanks for persisting. Since my info on that new so-called Sidewinder Freestyle model is only second hand from a British retailer, and I bought the "other model" instead, I completely defer to you on this, and appreciate your "break in" method also.
This summer I used a probably similar resulting method - not sure - by several times repeating a process of heating both the liner and the shell suspended near the top of a closed black plastic trash can out in the sun - and then I'd repeatedly put on both while still hot/warm, handling them with gloves, just in case. Without having to force anything, the fit of the Zipfits changed and improved dramatically for the better with each of these preliminary liner fits, to the point of where I'm not sure I need to do a rice cooker method fit, or any other. I may just use a boot heater bag fit before skiing instead, maybe a few times.
. In one case, the liners went from not able to fully close or buckle the boots to being able to comfortably buckle and flex them, more and more. Fun experiments.

It sounds like you effectively got the job done in a similar fashion using heat. The cautionary issue I pointed out is the challenge of getting the overlap of the throat back to normal without it catching or binding on the other side. I accidentally did that once years ago and it permanently "dented" the other side of the overlap because the overlap sides "crashed" into each other while the shell was heated and once cooled, stuck that way.

 

[Noodler]

I have the Gara and because the throat was gapped as you describe, not 2" but couldn't be buckled, I've gone without laces. The fit and performance are great as it is now. Are you saying the process you advise would overcome the gap without changing the shell and enable me to use the laces?

Yes, I believe if you use the process I outlined where you heat the liner in the oven and place it in a cold shell, you should be able to get the liner volume to better match the shell and be able to use the laces again. You might have to do this a few times.

I took some pictures of my fully broken in GARA and the new one (although the pic of the new one is after one cycle of break-in). It's pretty obvious how much the volume can be reduced through this break-in fitting process. I'll post 'em up when I get a chance.

 

[RikkiBobbi]

Best place online to buy the Gara?

 

[Noodler]

Best place online to buy the Gara?

I'm unsure about a reputable online outlet to buy these liners. If you're the DIY type then you could just scour ebay for the model and size you need (although they come up fairly infrequently).

What size do you need? I may be unloading a couple pairs.

 

[MountainMonster]

Best place online to buy the Gara?

Lockwoods,
https://www.lockwoods.com/index.php?act=viewCat&manuf=WmlwIEZpdA==

 

[RikkiBobbi]

I'm unsure about a reputable online outlet to buy these liners. If you're the DIY type then you could just scour ebay for the model and size you need (although they come up fairly infrequently).

What size do you need? I may be unloading a couple pairs.

27.5

 

[Comish]

I'm on the hunt for some 25's if anyone is interested in selling.

 

[SkiJohn]

Hi,

I'm currently skiing Atomic RT Ti 150 plugs in 26.5 with Nordica Dobermann liners. The reason is that Atomic liners are too short for my 275 mm feets and I have issues with big toes in them. Dobberman liners are more stretchable in neoprene toe area.

My feets are with a little bit higher instep - I had to make more room for it in the plugs and even then, the fit is quite snug.

Liners are now packed/out in ankle area and I'm looking for some options.

Unfortunatelly, I have no chance to fit yipfits at the bootfiter and have to order online...

From your experience - do you think Garas would work for me? What size? Is 26.5 fine for my 275 mm feet? Or would 27.5 Garas fit into 26.5 Atomic shell with some grinding in a toe box already done?

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[Noodler]

Hi,

I'm currently skiing Atomic RT Ti 150 plugs in 26.5 with Nordica Dobermann liners. The reason is that Atomic liners are too short for my 275 mm feets and I have issues with big toes in them. Dobberman liners are more stretchable in neoprene toe area.

My feets are with a little bit higher instep - I had to make more room for it in the plugs and even then, the fit is quite snug.

Liners are now packed/out in ankle area and I'm looking for some options.

Unfortunatelly, I have no chance to fit yipfits at the bootfiter and have to order online...

From your experience - do you think Garas would work for me? What size? Is 26.5 fine for my 275 mm feet? Or would 27.5 Garas fit into 26.5 Atomic shell with some grinding in a toe box already done?

Any suggestions?

Thanks

My feet measure 27 and I ski a 25 shell and a 25.5 ZipFit Gara. The Gara fits like a sock outside of the boot shell. My forefoot and toes are right against the neoprene and stretching it. In the shells, my toes are able to pull off the front of the liners when my foot is fully seated back into the heel pocket. I have two sets of Gara liners, older pair in Head B3 RD plugs, and a newer pair in Head B2 RD plugs. These are 93mm last boots in 25 shell size. Gara can be made to fit in super tight shells; just have to break them in for the shells correctly. Hope this helps.

 

[SkiJohn]

My feet measure 27 and I ski a 25 shell and a 25.5 ZipFit Gara. The Gara fits like a sock outside of the boot shell. My forefoot and toes are right against the neoprene and stretching it. In the shells, my toes are able to pull off the front of the liners when my foot is fully seated back into the heel pocket. I have two sets of Gara liners, older pair in Head B3 RD plugs, and a newer pair in Head B2 RD plugs. These are 93mm last boots in 25 shell size. Gara can be made to fit in super tight shells; just have to break them in for the shells correctly. Hope this helps.

Thanks Noodler! Looks like I shouldn'n have a problem then.

 

[maxwerks]

I can get a great deal on a pair of Zipfit Classic Liners, for $90 extra I could also get the Freeride Stealth Leather model. I will be using them primarily in my Atomic FIS 150 memory fit shells, in a tight size with ~12mm behind my heel. Does this forum think I will regret going with the Classic model? I'm a bit confused about the various models, does anyone know if this Freeride model is the same as the Gara / Grand Prix just with more OM filler? Can some filler be removed or would that be a warranty voiding hassle? Is the Freeride model the same as the Sidewinder? Many thanks!

 

[oldfashoned]

I remember watching a video where Sven describes the Classic is for oversized shells. Gara and Grand Prix same size different amounts of OMFit. Smallest size liner.

 

[maxwerks]

So would the Classic in 25.5 fit in my 92mm last boot, also in 25.5, possibly after removing some OMFit?

 

[ski otter 2]

I can get a great deal on a pair of Zipfit Classic Liners, for $90 extra I could also get the Freeride Stealth Leather model. I will be using them primarily in my Atomic FIS 150 memory fit shells, in a tight size with ~12mm behind my heel. Does this forum think I will regret going with the Classic model? I'm a bit confused about the various models, does anyone know if this Freeride model is the same as the Gara / Grand Prix just with more OM filler? Can some filler be removed or would that be a warranty voiding hassle? Is the Freeride model the same as the Sidewinder? Many thanks!

To answer your questions (already answered above, but still, I know, confusing):
I understand that the current Freeride model is a version of the Sidewinder.
And again, Freeride model is not the same as the Gara/Grand Prix models. Lockwood's in England stopped carrying the Grand Prix in favor of the Sidewinder Freeride, they told me over the phone last summer. It is a bit more upright, in addition to a changed design in Om fit chambers: wrap-around instead of bullseye around the ankle. It is preferred by today's youth, he said, for a more upright and less tiring stance. And Sven says it is an upgrade, in terms of support from the chambers.

You could call them on the old smart phone and ask yourself. They have a great low price on the Freeride Stealth Sidewinder, I believe, unless I badly misunderstood.

(Instead, I got the old Grand Prix on closeout. At this point, maybe wish I'd tried the Freeride Sidewinder instead, in spite of the forward lean difference, unless I figure out the Grand Prix better for my particular feet and boots.)

Yes, the difference between the Gara and Grand Prix is just more Om filler in the Grand Prix. They are probably at an angle that is closer to your race boots, compared to the more upright Freeride. (At least I was told this by Lockwood's.)

I have been experimenting this year with both Gara model and Grand Prix model in a Lange RS 130 98 consumer race boot, and a Nordica Doberman GP 130 98 consumer race boot. So far, the Gara and Grand Prix zipfits don't really work well, for me, in those boots. Too lumpy and ill-fitting, and stiff and soft in slightly the wrong places. I was warned of this by Chuck, a great bootfitter in Breck at Racer's Edge who said that for my foot, and my gs ski preferences, he thought just a new Lange liner would be best, once my old one packed out.

For me, the Grand Prix sort of works instead in a Lange RX 130 boot used by me primarily for fat skis on powder days. That boot had packed out and become too soft-flexing, and the zips stiffen it up enough, even though still a bit lumpy. The RS 130s with original liner, however, work as well for this use, but still experimenting. Different though. In some ways comparable with different pluses and minuses, and both set-ups fun.

You can freely add or subtract the Om fit: these liners are designed to do just that, using plastic tubing you can get at Home Depot. Lockwood's is also the place to get more Om fit tubes - much cheaper than any other place I found, and quickly shipped.

Good luck!

 

[ski otter 2]

P.S.

I remember watching a video where Sven describes the Classic is for oversized shells. Gara and Grand Prix same size different amounts of OMFit. Smallest size liner.

This is my recollection also. So Classic would be wrong for a 98 last race boot, let alone for a 92. Gara is the one to start with, probably, for a 92, and you can still remove Omfit from it with a tube, but........ I was warned that in my case, with a 98 race boot, it wouldn't work well for me, wanting to use FIS GS skis.

It really depends on your particular feet in that particular boot, hard to say. My Lange RS 130 98s still fit pretty loosely, so it was maybe worth a try for me, even though at this point probably a failed one: the 0.E. liners still work best, even loose, for me.

 

[Noodler]

I remember watching a video where Sven describes the Classic is for oversized shells. Gara and Grand Prix same size different amounts of OMFit. Smallest size liner.

This is the "party line" that I have also repeated many times. However, I now own different models/versions of ZipFit liners, and I see more differences in the volume and overall dimensions than you would attribute to being only due to the amount of OMfit compound. Maybe it's just the liners I happen to own (these are handmade in Italy after all, so there probably is some degree of "unintended" variation).

 

[maxwerks]

I have been experimenting this year with both Gara model and Grand Prix model in a Lange RS 130 98 consumer race boot, and a Nordica Doberman GP 130 98 consumer race boot. So far, the Gara and Grand Prix zipfits don't really work well, for me, in those boots. Too lumpy and ill-fitting, and stiff and soft in slightly the wrong places.

Nothing beats experimentation, thx for sharing. Was the size of the lumpy fitting liner the same as the shell size?

I will mostly be skiing in slalom training so the liners need to be really tight fitting. My stock Sidas liners are up for replacement and I am hoping to upgrade with these Zipfits. I had a call with Lockwood today and they advised to go with the Classic. Unfortunately they don't have the Gara in stock. I will call them again tomorrow and dig a little deeper.

@Noodler: how do you manage to get a foot of 27cm into a 25 shell, are you able to ski without pain? Dô you also experience lumpiness issues with the zipfit liner in your Head RD plug boots?

 

[Noodler]

Nothing beats experimentation, thx for sharing. Was the size of the lumpy fitting liner the same as the shell size?

I will mostly be skiing in slalom training so the liners need to be really tight fitting. My stock Sidas liners are up for replacement and I am hoping to upgrade with these Zipfits. I had a call with Lockwood today and they advised to go with the Classic. Unfortunately they don't have the Gara in stock. I will call them again tomorrow and dig a little deeper.

@Noodler: how do you manage to get a foot of 27cm into a 25 shell, are you able to ski without pain? Dô you also experience lumpiness issues with the zipfit liner in your Head RD plug boots?

When a foot is measured on a Brannock device, it is flat and not supported by a footbed. Once supported properly by a footbed, your foot will typically be a bit shorter in length. So that's part of it. Also, using a ZipFit means that there's less overall thickness in the liner material, thus allowing me to get my foot into a smaller shell.

Regarding "lumpiness", I'm not totally sure what you mean. I will say that getting my latest Gara liner into my new B2 RD plug shells took a lot of work, but now the fit is unparalleled for me. It's the best setup I've ever put together. Heating the liners in a convection oven and putting them into a cold shell is the "secret" to getting a ZipFit to adapt to the shell and your foot faster.

 

[oldfashoned]

As for the forward angle, the Gara I have is about 9deg. I have these in a Raptor with 16deg angle. 94 last. Maybe 15mm fit. And yes this is a process that is taking me half a season to dial in.

 

[coops]

Heating the liners in a convection oven and putting them into a cold shell is the "secret" to getting a ZipFit to adapt to the shell and your foot faster.

the above to a gazillion....

I'd heard on Snowheads forum (a UK based snow website) about zipfits... and how they can take a few days to bed in and be quite or decidedly uncomfortable until then.

BUT - my experience was essentially nirvana from the first run.

Step ZERO : you'd be far, far, far better off checking the liner in your boot rather than just guessing/estimating/hoping. I was fitted at Jans at Park City into my Zipfits. First shell check feet only in shell (Atomic Hawx 120's previously shell moulded/heated and used with the stock Atomic liner), and he decided to try the Gara model.. and certainly, even this zipfit novice could tell a larger volumed model wasn't an option...

Step ONE = more or less as Noodler says.
In my case at a boot/ski shop, he put the Zipfit in the boot shell cooker (think it was a Fischer box but, meh, whatever... a very hot box, for what would be the usual shell heating time, say ten mins?) So liner comes out good and very hot... with all that Zipfit Omfit goop ready to move about far more easily than body temp would achieve.

As noodler also says, I reckon it's this step that's critical (note my shell was left as is, not warmed up at all) - yes, the zipfit will mould naturally with time... but getting it really good and hot is the way to go... and then:

Step TWO = liners on feet, laced up good and snug with the liner booster strap snug too and into the boots... and buckles done up fairly snugly (not as tight as a foam fit but really fairly tight...) and then WALK AROUND... a good 15 or 20 mins, walking in those boots, flexing and getting all that OMfit stuff moving around. This is unlike any other liner fitting step, where you're usually standing stationary flexed slightly into the boot tongue.
No.
Walk and flex and work all that material around while it's good and hot and really mobile.

Step THREE = go skiing as soon as possible.
What this means is... get fit first thing in the morning, like I did. Jans there is only 10mins away from the slopes, so as soon as I was done i was off to the chair lift.
Decidedly tight fit when unbuckled going up the lift, do up buckles (top two only need to be one finger tight, no need to use your hand heel to get leverage and tight clamp... while buckle is undone you csn flex forwrd to drive heel into the pocket (less damaging to floors then a heel bang of boot to do the same job) and ski.
One short run and all was fine. Astonishing heel hold without any need to crank the boot buckles tight.

DID go back a couple days later to remould shell - toe caps on feet inside the liner, and thin pads on the ankle bone spots on the OUTSIDE of the liner just to relieve those areas, heat and remould shell and perfect.

Note - do have a good, powerful boot heater or heated boot bag so you can get the liner and that omfit stuff nice and warm first thing.