Tip Lead

[martyg]

Great explanation here on the Dan and Ron Show.

 

[green26]

Hot here is So Cal this week and thinking snow.
Very nice. My taos ski week instructor really drove home the tip lead concept. It was a revelation for my skiing. Dan and Ron's deeper focus on the "equal ankle angulation" detail is a very helpful addition to my understanding of the mechanics. Thank you.

 

[Rod9301]

Hot here is So Cal this week and thinking snow.
Very nice. My taos ski week instructor really drove home the tip lead concept. It was a revelation for my skiing. Dan and Ron's deeper focus on the "equal ankle angulation" detail is a very helpful addition to my understanding of the mechanics. Thank you.

What did the taos instructor day about tip lead?

 

[markojp]

What did the taos instructor day about tip lead?

Stuff.

 

[no edge]

I was freeskiing with a bunch of guys from Epic. I am not certain who suggested my tip lead was a flaw. Over the years I have reduced tip lead and it feels great. I like recreational type skiing with both skis matching, but not perfectly.

 

[Tony S]

Okay, so not another gratuities thread. Cool.

 

[green26]

yup - stuff. I'm terrible at remembering what is actually said (just ask my wife). Rather it just got into my body and clicked really well.

 

[slowrider]

 

[Tony S]

View attachment 177255

That pic needs some annotations.

 

[Rod9301]

That pic needs some annotations.

This picture is so wrong on do many ways. Hip width? He has a narrow stance, not hip width.

Hips aligned with skis? No counter?

 

[slow-line-fast]

In her videos Deb Armstrong talks about tip lead happening naturally in a turn, but that she doesn't specifically encourage tip lead because a skier may tend to overdo it. Or something like that. The Dan and Ron video above touches on this briefly at 6:06.

Too much tip lead links with twisted hips and dropping onto the inside ski. I know because I am working on not doing this. Or rather, on doing what is in the 'lightly annotated' picture above, hips aligned with ski direction at the apex of the turn. (Rather than twisted toward the outside of the turn, which would be skiers right at that point.) Another mental cue for me, my outside ski is overtaking my inside ski. The effect is to reduce excessive tip lead, to get back to a functional amount of tip lead.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Hip width? He has a narrow stance, not hip width.

Skis are hip width, legs are closer together because of high edge angles.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I think you have to look at your frame of reference when looking at tip lead. Is the frame of reference your feet, your body or the observer from where they are standing? I'm trying not to have very much tip lead.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Too much tip lead happens when the skier intentionally moves that inside ski forward. This puts that inside ski tip way out front, and it moves the inside hip more forward along with it . Hip dump is often the result. Excessive tip lead also puts the skier aft for the next initiation. When this happens, excessive movements are necessary to get the next turn started. Avoid sliding that inside ski forward.

However, anytime a skier is moving across the fall line on a noticeable pitch, there will be a bit of natural inside tip lead. This is because the ski boots don't allow the uphill ankle to dorsiflex enough to hold that ski back level with the downhill ski. This is the natural tip lead that occurs in every turn.

On the other hand, no tip lead means the skier is not using separation. The skier may not yet have learned to initiate turns from the feet up, and so could be using upper body rotation at turn entry. Lack of separation limits how versatile the skier is in controlling turn radius. Short turns will be difficult to do. Note: if the natural tip lead is absent on a notable pitch, the skier may even be turning the hips uphill a bit to avoid facing downhill.

For the skier who does ski with separation, who initiates the turn from the feet up, who skis with natural tip lead no more and no less, and who can do short radius turns at will, there are benefits to holding/pulling the inside ski back. This holding back/pulling back action slightly reduces the natural tip lead but does not eliminate it. The benefit is that the inside ski is kept fully engaged. Note: this inside ski pull-back does not involve moving the hip above it back. It's a foot/ski pull-back only.

 

[Rod9301]

Too much tip lead happens when the skier intentionally moves that inside ski forward. This puts that inside ski tip way out front, and it moves the inside hip more forward along with it . Hip dump is often the result. Excessive tip lead also puts the skier aft for the next initiation. When this happens, excessive movements are necessary to get the next turn started. Avoid sliding that inside ski forward.

However, anytime a skier is moving across the fall line on a noticeable pitch, there will be a bit of natural inside tip lead. This is because the ski boots don't allow the uphill ankle to dorsiflex enough to hold that ski back level with the downhill ski. This is the natural tip lead that occurs in every turn.

On the other hand, no tip lead means the skier is not using separation. The skier may not yet have learned to initiate turns from the feet up, and so could be using upper body rotation at turn entry. Lack of separation limits how versatile the skier is in controlling turn radius. Short turns will be difficult to do.

For the skier who does ski with separation, who initiates the turn from the feet up, who skis with natural tip lead no more and no less, who can do short radius turns at will, there are benefits to holding/pulling the inside ski back. This holding back/pulling back action slightly reduces the natural tip lead but does not eliminate it. The benefit is that the inside ski is kept fully engaged. --Note: this inside ski pull-back does not involve moving the hip above it back. It's a foot/ski pull-back only.

Yep, well explained.

 

[slowrider]

LiquidFeet thanks for the explanation. Note: this inside ski pull-back does not involve moving the hip above it back. It's a foot/ski pull-back only.
This is the start of having a dynamic inside ski in a carved turn. The Phantom foot.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Too much tip lead happens when the skier intentionally moves that inside ski forward. This puts that inside ski tip way out front, and it moves the inside hip more forward along with it . Hip dump is often the result. Excessive tip lead also puts the skier aft for the next initiation. When this happens, excessive movements are necessary to get the next turn started. Avoid sliding that inside ski forward.

However, anytime a skier is moving across the fall line on a noticeable pitch, there will be a bit of natural inside tip lead. This is because the ski boots don't allow the uphill ankle to dorsiflex enough to hold that ski back level with the downhill ski. This is the natural tip lead that occurs in every turn.

On the other hand, no tip lead means the skier is not using separation. The skier may not yet have learned to initiate turns from the feet up, and so could be using upper body rotation at turn entry. Lack of separation limits how versatile the skier is in controlling turn radius. Short turns will be difficult to do. Note: if the natural tip lead is absent on a notable pitch, the skier may even be turning the hips uphill a bit to avoid facing downhill.

For the skier who does ski with separation, who initiates the turn from the feet up, who skis with natural tip lead no more and no less, and who can do short radius turns at will, there are benefits to holding/pulling the inside ski back. This holding back/pulling back action slightly reduces the natural tip lead but does not eliminate it. The benefit is that the inside ski is kept fully engaged. Note: this inside ski pull-back does not involve moving the hip above it back. It's a foot/ski pull-back only.

Well explained!

 

[Chris V.]

Excessive tip lead also puts the skier aft for the next initiation.

I'm coming around to the view that a poor pattern of fore-aft balance through the turn cycle is THE common major flaw that skiers from the upper intermediate level and on display. It just screws up everything else the skier is trying to do.

 

[Henry]

Why equal ankle angles? How does this improve the skis' interaction with the snow?
How does one know if they have equal, or unequal, ankle angles?
The stiffness of the boot enforces some tip lead for the inner ski.
Steering, if one does that, does not require keeping the heels in the same position as the demo showed.
The example with weight lifting shows great weight on the inside foot. Many of us ski with little weight on that foot.
We all know the tragedy of weight back on the ski. Whatever weight we have on the inside tip-leading ski has that much weight on the tail of that ski. Bad dog!
I agree with LF.

 

[Seldomski]

Trying to eliminate tip lead in your skiing can cause other problems. It makes pivot slips really difficult to do (ie what @LiquidFeet mentioned about separation).

Perfect tip lead is like the perfect shrubbery... not too big, not too small, and a little to the left.