Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

[Tony S]

all carved turns are GS turns

They are?

 

[Dave Marshak]

Some data from carv:


Suggests that increasing edge angle while under load is not really a thing (at least for Ted ).

Just the opposite. It looks like the edge angle varies continuously. At some point you may reach an angle that can’t be increased because of physical constraints but that doesn’t mean you can’t decrease the angle.

It’s pretty simple. Tip and extend at the same time and pressure increase and the angles change. Whatever effect that has on your turn depends any number of other factors.

dm

 

[Dave Marshak]

They are?

Yup. That’s the only thing Harald Harb and PSIA agree on.

dm

 

[Dave Marshak]

I’m out. I’m not interested in arguing. When you put up a graph that shows the opposite of what you intend to prove there’s no point discussing it further.

Carry on.

dm

 

[Tony S]

all carved turns are GS turns

They are?

Yup. That’s the only thing Harald Harb and PSIA agree on.

Apparently I missed that day in class.

 

[markojp]

That only confirms my point. If you don’t have the ability to tip your ski you don’t have control of it. GS requires more control of your line than any recreational carving and all carved turns are GS turns. To say you can’t edge ( tip) and pressure is like saying you can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

dm

I think what's missing in the discussion is how additional edge angle is added under load by shortening the inside leg. You'll only ever get so much by foot tipping alone. And believe me, I'm a huuuge foot tipping advocate.

 

[Sanity]

That was a bunch of neat points. On one side of the argument is that strong forces will require alignment of the leg that can handle those forces. Tipping movements that move the knee can weaken the support of the leg. On the other side of the argument is that tipping does change during all turns. If tipping doesn't change then how could you release the turn? I think it comes down to the mechanisms. There's an old saying to start the turn with your ankles, then knee, and then bring in the hips. Some of these powerful turns aren't done with just subtle movements of the ankles.

 

[Henry]

The ski edge angle to the snow, and therefore the outside leg angle to the snow, both increase during the turn, because the forces increase. At the top of the turn (yes, the turn begins right after the release of the previous turn) centrifugal force is pulling the body out while gravity is pulling the body in. At the end of the turn both forces pull the body the same way toward the outside of the turn. More angle is needed to handle this change in forces. More angle is achieved partly by retracting the inside leg farther to get it out of the way (look at the racers in a turn with their inside foot near their outside knee) combined with max counter and more angulation.

 

[Yo Momma]

That was a bunch of neat points.

Agreed! I'd like to thank everyone for sharing. I'm learning here and fully admit to not having a handle on all angles of the discussion. I think we are all learning how to describe the physical attributes of the human body while in motion and attempting to achieve a desired result. In medicine, I've found that the best road to progression is discussion and disagreement. In physiology class during dental school, our study group all performed better when we would disagree on a topic. This discussion has been Awesome! Thanks! @Dave Marshak and everyone else!

 

[Tony S]

Apparently I missed that day in class.

So these turns between 1:25 and 2:15 (ignore the cover shot) are GS turns? Or maybe they're not carved turns? Hmm. I need some schooling on that one.

 

[Seldomski]

Just the opposite. It looks like the edge angle varies continuously. At some point you may reach an angle that can’t be increased because of physical constraints but that doesn’t mean you can’t decrease the angle.

It’s pretty simple. Tip and extend at the same time and pressure increase and the angles change. Whatever effect that has on your turn depends any number of other factors.

dm

I didn't say he wasn't changing the angle, just that he wasn't increasing the angle further when pressure increased. What I see in those graphs is that the *bulk* of the tipping happens while the skis are lightly loaded. As pressure builds, he starts to reduce tipping, which to me seems counterintuitive (not because it is wrong, just that I am not good at skiing). Sorry for any confusion, I think we are actually agreeing, but hard to tell on the web.

 

[James]

As pressure builds, he starts to reduce tipping

Dubious. But, it really doesn’t matter.
You’re just going to tie your mind in knots with this thing divorced from what the turn looked like.

Just think you want to start planning for release early, not get there and suddenly have to do something.

 

[Rod9301]

Razie and Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that when Razie says "pressure" he is referring to the part of the turn where the skis are under maximum load. And he's talking about high G turns. @markojp is referring to the fact that the turns Razie usually talks about are turns appropriate for racers.

So this disagreement hinges on whether or not one can/should tip the skis onto a higher edge angle at the point of maximum pressure in the turn by tipping the feet farther inside the boots. I'm assuming this means both feet, so the focus is on everting one foot and inverting the other at or around apex.

@razie is saying nope, you've already done your ankle-tipping back when the skis were light. Now you're busy resisting the forces and the ankles need to stay stable.

@Dave Marshak is saying sure you can ankle-tip inside the boot to increase edge angle at the point of maximum pressure.

Razie and Dave, have I got that right? Marko, you've done your time in gates. Thoughts? Anybody else?

Are you talking about the inside or outside foot?

Because all the tipping happens with the inside foot, and yes you keep tipping and keep shortening the inside leg.

 

[markojp]

Are you talking about the inside or outside foot?

Because all the tipping happens with the inside foot, and yes you keep tipping and keep shortening the inside leg.

Dunno.... I tip both.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Agreed! I'd like to thank everyone for sharing. I'm learning here and fully admit to not having a handle on all angles of the discussion. I think we are all learning how to describe the physical attributes of the human body while in motion and attempting to achieve a desired result. In medicine, I've found that the best road to progression is discussion and disagreement. In physiology class during dental school, our study group all performed better when we would disagree on a topic. This discussion has been Awesome! Thanks! @Dave Marshak and everyone else!

Agree - disagreement is great for learning. I enjoy differences of perspective in technical discussions. It can be very illuminating, but only if the participants don't start personally attacking each other bwhen they can't change the other person's mind.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Are you talking about the inside or outside foot?

Because all the tipping happens with the inside foot, and yes you keep tipping and keep shortening the inside leg.

I thought I'd go for an egalitarian approach this time.

 

[JESinstr]

That only confirms my point. If you don’t have the ability to tip your ski you don’t have control of it. GS requires more control of your line than any recreational carving and all carved turns are GS turns. To say you can’t edge ( tip) and pressure is like saying you can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

dm

They are?

Yup. That’s the only thing Harald Harb and PSIA agree on.

dm

Short, Medium, Long Radius are good descriptors for turn shape. The GS turn is a racing variant usually associated with Medium to Long radius turn shapes although in today's GS competitions, there is also significant integration of the Stivot which has changed the way the GS course is skied.

IMO Use of the word Carve to describe a type of turn let alone the size of the radius just muddies the water. Carving is a process...the process of using the properties of the ski to convert straight line travel into circular travel. A skier who is carving can produce >0 Gs of Centripetal force and up depending on the skills level and velocity.

A skilled skier can vary the carving process at will to achieve intended outcomes. An unskilled skier struggles between the worlds of straight and arcs.

 

[Tony S]

Short, Medium, Long Radius are good descriptors for turn shape. The GS turn is a racing variant usually associated with Medium to Long radius turn shapes although in today's GS competitions, there is also significant integration of the Stivot which has changed the way the GS course is skied.

IMO Use of the word Carve to describe a type of turn let alone the size of the radius just muddies the water. Carving is a process...the process of using the properties of the ski to convert straight line travel into circular travel. A skier who is carving can produce >0 Gs of Centripetal force and up depending on the skills level and velocity.

A skilled skier can vary the carving process at will to achieve intended outcomes. An unskilled skier struggles between the worlds of straight and arcs.

The way I read this, we're on the same page: There is nothing about a carved turn that says it has to be a GS turn - i.e., that it has to be a medium or long radius turn. Thanks.

What I haven't seen is anyone defending the apparently well-known (to everyone by me) and well-agreed-upon idea that "all carved turns are GS turns". Upthread I posted some video that appears to me to demonstrate short radius carved turns that I would definitely not call "GS turns." So I'm still confused as to what that notion is all about.

 

[JESinstr]

What I haven't seen is anyone defending the apparently well-known (to everyone by me) and well-agreed-upon idea that "all carved turns are GS turns". Upthread I posted some video that appears to me to demonstrate short radius carved turns that I would definitely not call "GS turns." So I'm still confused as to what that notion is all about.

Don't loose any sleep over it. GS turns are defined by a radius of roughly 18M+ therefore a 12M radius turn is not a GS turn. IMO it is just a term that has entered the skiing vernacular from the racing community.

 

[James]

Upthread I posted some video that appears to me to demonstrate short radius carved turns that I would definitely not call "GS turns." So I'm still confused as to what that notion is all about.

Let me know when you find out! I did miss the apparent conclave between psia and harald where this was settled.
Those short radius turns you posted are slower than dirt in actual slalom racing. Too round, too long on edge. But it’s nhnt.