Tolling to be implemented in BCC and LCC in the near future, according to UDOT's Executive Director

[cantunamunch]

I don't want this to get derailed but it's happening faster than some want to believe.

Exactly.

. At 53 I hope to see another 30-35 years.

And because I agree with you, I don't want to.

 

[Wade]

Not to be Debbie Downer but I'd be more concerned about the climate and snow levels by the early 2040's. By that time the need to get people up the canyon may be dramatically less.

Let me preface this by stating that I’m not some climate change denying nut job, and I’m very much concerned about the impact of climate change on the planet and on our sport.

That said, expecting climate change to have a meaningful impact on skier traffic in LCC within the next 20 years seems to me to be overly alarmist. It’s the type of relatively short term prediction climate change deniers come back to when that catastrophic change doesn’t happen and use it as evidence that the other side of the argument was just hysterical rhetoric that never materializes.

I’m concerned about snowfall at lower elevations and in lower snow areas, but it would be shocking to me if Snowbird’s and Alta’s viability was jeopardized in the next 20 years by a lack of snowfall.

 

[James]

Let's face it. Lift served skiing in general is not environmentally friendly.

Well it’s depressing that neither is Utah, or a lot of the US. Promote environmental recreation at the same time as not really caring about the effect of cars on the environment. God forbid Utah lead on this environmental/social issue.

Instead, Utah funnels federal lease and royalty money meant for communities back to the fossil fuel industry.

The gondola makes little sense. You can’t get off, people still park there, it’s an enormous cost. You could spend the money on avy sheds and an electric bus system that would benefit the city, not just skiers.
There’s ways to continue tailgating without the tailgate.

Let’s assume it’s 24 miles of driving round trip in LCC. 160 days/season, 5,000 vehicles per day. That’s 800,000 cars x 24 miles = 19.2 million miles
(This is only winter!)

For CO2, I’ll use 1 gallon gasoline burned in 24 miles. Considering the 10-20 min idling when parking, this is low.
That’s 8,887 gms CO2/gal or 19.5 pounds.

5,000 vehicles/day x 1gal/veh x 160days x 19.5 pounds/gal = 800,000gal x 19.5 lbs/gal = 15.6 million pounds CO2, or 7,800 tons.

For NOx, I have to use this chart. Assume a 2018 car, that’s 6 years old instead of the 12 yrs old nat’l average. This is a big benefit if you look at how much less emissions there are from newer cars.

NOx 0.256 gm/mile x 19.2 million miles = 4,915.2 kgs, 10,838 pounds, 5.4 tons

Nx: 10,838lbs, 5.4 tons
CO: 4.646gm/mile = 89,203kgs, 196,693lbs, 98.3 tons

https://www.bts.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/2021-06/table_04_43_060821.xls

Estimated U.S. Average Vehicle Emissions Rates per Vehicle by Vehicle Type Using Gasoline and Diesel | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

KEY: CO = carbon monoxide; HC = hydrocarbons; NOx = nitrogen oxides; P = projection; PM2.5 = particulate matter with diameter

www.bts.gov

Don’t be distracted by Climate Change, it’s an excuse to do nothing.
Skiers and riders are contributing 19.2 million miles of pollution per season in Little Cottonwood Canyon alone:

196,700lbs CO; 10,800lbs NOx, 15.6million lbs CO2
Killing them slowly, youths sue Utah.

 

[Wasatchman]

Well it’s depressing that neither is Utah, or a lot of the US. Promote environmental recreation at the same time as not really caring about the effect of cars on the environment. God forbid Utah lead on this environmental/social issue.

Instead, Utah funnels federal lease and royalty money meant for communities back to the fossil fuel industry.

The gondola makes little sense. You can’t get off, people still park there, it’s an enormous cost. You could spend the money on avy sheds and an electric bus system that would benefit the city, not just skiers.
There’s ways to continue tailgating without the tailgate.

Let’s assume it’s 24 miles of driving round trip in LCC. 160 days/season, 5,000 vehicles per day. That’s 800,000 cars x 24 miles = 19.2 million miles
(This is only winter!)

For CO2, I’ll use 1 gallon gasoline burned in 24 miles. Considering the 10-20 min idling when parking, this is low.
That’s 8,887 gms CO2/gal or 19.5 pounds.

5,000 vehicles/day x 1gal/veh x 160days x 19.5 pounds/gal = 800,000gal x 19.5 lbs/gal = 15.6 million pounds CO2, or 7,800 tons.

For NOx, I have to use this chart. Assume a 2018 car, that’s 6 years old instead of the 12 yrs old nat’l average. This is a big benefit if you look at how much less emissions there are from newer cars.

NOx 0.256 gm/mile x 19.2 million miles = 4,915.2 kgs, 10,838 pounds, 5.4 tons

Nx: 10,838lbs, 5.4 tons
CO: 4.646gm/mile = 89,203kgs, 196,693lbs, 98.3 tons

https://www.bts.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/2021-06/table_04_43_060821.xls

Estimated U.S. Average Vehicle Emissions Rates per Vehicle by Vehicle Type Using Gasoline and Diesel | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

KEY: CO = carbon monoxide; HC = hydrocarbons; NOx = nitrogen oxides; P = projection; PM2.5 = particulate matter with diameter

www.bts.gov

Don’t be distracted by Climate Change.
Skiers and riders are contributing 19.2 million miles of pollution per season in Little Cottonwood Canyon alone:
View attachment 207368
196,700lbs CO; 10,800lbs NOx, 15.6million lbs CO2
Killing them slowly, youths sue Utah.

You're preaching to the choir although I'm admittedly a bit of a hypocrite because my carbon footprint is very high (although hugely mitigated by not having children).

I am convinced if the current consensus of climate scientists is accurate we are doomed because even those that believe it are unwilling to sacrifice enough (me included if I'm completely honest). As are those powerful proponents that show up to the Davos climate summit in private jets.

But that said I still try and do my part. But when that hugely interferes with the lifestyle I want to lead then I'm hugely guilty.

 

[David Chaus]

Let me preface this by stating that I’m not some climate change denying nut job, and I’m very much concerned about the impact of climate change on the planet and on our sport.

That said, expecting climate change to have a meaningful impact on skier traffic in LCC within the next 20 years seems to me to be overly alarmist. It’s the type of relatively short term prediction climate change deniers come back to when that catastrophic change doesn’t happen and use it as evidence that the other side of the argument was just hysterical rhetoric that never materializes.

I’m concerned about snowfall at lower elevations and in lower snow areas, but it would be shocking to me if Snowbird’s and Alta’s viability was jeopardized in the next 20 years by a lack of snowfall.

The LCC resorts will be viable, but since many other ski resorts are at lower elevations, particularly Midwest and NE, there will likely be added pressure on the remaining viable ski resorts. I fear LCC and BCC will generally be more crowded rather than less so in the next 20 years.

Skiing will likely become more and more something that people do on vacation to UT, CO and a handful of other places with higher elevation (or a combination of not-quite-as-high elevation and higher latitude, for example some resorts in BC and AB).

 

[James]

But when that hugely interferes with the lifestyle I want to lead then I'm hugely guilty.

How does banning cars up LCC affect lifestyle in any meaningful way?

 

[Wasatchman]

How does banning cars up LCC affect lifestyle in any meaningful way?

I'm for a ban of cars (assuming they get the busses right). But until then I am a hypocrite and drive. The current bus system sucks

 

[David Chaus]

If there are enough buses (hopefully EV buses) going up and down the canyons, I'm perfectly happy to take them. A big caveat is finding parking and/or easy connections to the LCC/BCC buses.

I'm curious about the planning and budgeting process for adding more bus service, and whether it's more challenging than many of us are aware, and/or a difficult bureaucratic process, or short-sighted stupidity. I'm thinking specifically of the buses, separately from the Phase 3 gondola project.

 

[crosscountry]

I'm for a ban of cars (assuming they get the busses right). But until then I am a hypocrite and drive. The current bus system sucks

I don't consider myself an "environmentalist". Yet, I take buses all the time, in NYC, in Summit county of Colorado.

Why? Because it's faster (bus lane) and cheaper (no parking cost)

However, I haven't taken the buses in SLC. The stories of difficulty (unreliable schedule, can't get a seat) makes me not want to chance it.

The solution to the Cottonwood traffic had to be solved by providing a working alternative to cars, not by banning cars alone. Without alternatives, people will continue to drive, toll or otherwise.

 

[TheArchitect]

Let me preface this by stating that I’m not some climate change denying nut job, and I’m very much concerned about the impact of climate change on the planet and on our sport.

That said, expecting climate change to have a meaningful impact on skier traffic in LCC within the next 20 years seems to me to be overly alarmist. It’s the type of relatively short term prediction climate change deniers come back to when that catastrophic change doesn’t happen and use it as evidence that the other side of the argument was just hysterical rhetoric that never materializes.

I’m concerned about snowfall at lower elevations and in lower snow areas, but it would be shocking to me if Snowbird’s and Alta’s viability was jeopardized in the next 20 years by a lack of snowfall.

I agree that places like LCC will be impacted the least and may in fact end up with even more traffic as other places become less viable. That said, and I honestly don't know about this, but is part of the magic of LCC due to Great Salt Lake? If that dried up, like it tried to do last summer, how much of an impact will it have on LCC snowfall? I'm happy to have someone say not at all because I don't know. It's just online speculation on my part.

I hope I'm wrong, and I really didn't mean to get us talking climate change to this extent. I have to say that for this eastern skier the viability of skiing is on my mind more and more. This past NE ski season sucked. It doesn't stay consistently cold here anymore.

Sorry! Back to our regularly scheduled government boondoggle.

 

[scott43]

I read a bit about the great salt Lake thing, Lake effect snow is apparently a thing so it could very well dry up and it would impact snow totals. I had no idea really..

 

[crosscountry]

hope I'm wrong, and I really didn't mean to get us talking climate change to this extent. I have to say that for this eastern skier the viability of skiing is on my mind more and more. This past NE ski season sucked. It doesn't stay consistently cold here anymore.

Skiing is very much intertwined with climate. So IF the climate changes, the future of skiing will be impacted.

What skiing doesn't have to do with though, is the politics of climate change/unchange.

 

[Wasatchman]

I agree that places like LCC will be impacted the least and may in fact end up with even more traffic as other places become less viable. That said, and I honestly don't know about this, but is part of the magic of LCC due to Great Salt Lake? If that dried up, like it tried to do last summer, how much of an impact will it have on LCC snowfall? I'm happy to have someone say not at all because I don't know. It's just online speculation on my part.

I hope I'm wrong, and I really didn't mean to get us talking climate change to this extent. I have to say that for this eastern skier the viability of skiing is on my mind more and more. This past NE ski season sucked. It doesn't stay consistently cold here anymore.

Sorry! Back to our regularly scheduled government boondoggle.

The estimates that I have seen is that the lake effect contributes 10% of our snowfall so it is indeed a factor. Furthermore, the dry lakebed also factors in because of dust getting on the snow and melting it faster. The University of Utah estimated that this year are that dust ended up melting the snowpack 2 weeks earlier than it otherwise would have.

So yes, the Great Salt Lake is indeed part of a virtuous cycle related to our climate and snowfall and the dessication of the lake does have major consequences.

 

[James]

Quick solution - Why not just mandate no car with less than 3 people in it can go up the canyon? Something like 70-90% of vehicles have less than 3 people. I think 40-50% have 1. It’s just nuts. If you can find stats I’d be interested.

You’re going to end up with a bus to the gondola if it actually goes through.

 

[ss20]

With Ikon and Alta/Bird (and AltaBird) season pass prices rising at the rate they are let's see if there's any effect this year in crowd reduction. I personally know 2 people that aren't/can't buying passes this year due to the expense.