Toppling and balance.

[Tom Holtmann]

Well then, I guess we are in agreement! Toppling is/was a poor word to use in the instruction of skiing.

IMO the key can be found in your statement "If you were standing on ice and I push your feet out from under you do you topple? " The answer to that reality is obviously yes but this is not the reality for the skier. Instead, it is to get the body into an inclined position high up in the turn so that the kinetics of angulation and can follow and produces a quality and encompassing carving process.

I appreciate the civil discourse that led us to this conclusion.

It is obviously a poor word for you. However, for others it appears to be useful. Glad we agree!

 

[razie]

Gellie, yes if you're referring to transition and initiation.

maybe as a drill... sort of... I did ask him that directly and we agreed that for instance a flexed transition, which is all legs relaxing and feet tipping, is a good way to "topple".

I personally don't like "topple" much. It directs attention to the upper body and inclination. I know one can get away with more inclination on short skis and good snow etc, but meh.

As to balance... ehh I'm kind'a sold on "dynamic balance", where there is movement and the forces you balance against are varying. In many ways you can look at running, where you're pushing your upper body forward, to "catch" it on the other foot. Or skating. Except no need to "push" in skiing, if you can use gravity effectively…

 

[Zirbl]

maybe as a drill... sort of... I did ask him that directly and we agreed that for instance a flexed transition, which is all legs relaxing and feet tipping, is a good way to "topple".

I personally don't like "topple" much. It directs attention to the upper body and inclination. I know one can get away with more inclination on short skis and good snow etc, but meh.

As to balance... ehh I'm kind'a sold on "dynamic balance", where there is movement and the forces you balance against are varying. In many ways you can look at running, where you're pushing your upper body forward, to "catch" it on the other foot. Or skating. Except no need to "push" in skiing, if you can use gravity effectively.

Good point, I'd overlooked his retraction stuff. He doesn't seem to be dogmatic about skiing and seems to agree with different people at different times. There was certainly a time when he was talking about the rib cage leading the lower half. It gets complicated, because he also talked about setting that up by tipping the feet into the turn in its last phase, so that is using the feet, but not tipping in the direction of the new turn as commonly coached.
His readiness to revise previous positions is, in my view, a strong point.

 

[stevo]

The up and over drill is a good example of fixing toppling problems and has nothing to do with OLR style transitions. OLR vs ILE makes no difference here, the act of toppling or diving or pushing your CoM into the middle of the turn leads to loss of edge engagement, due to developing imbalance to the inside.

yes we can and should use both gravity and momentum to carry our CoM across into the inside of the new turn, but not to the point of “falling” there or toppling there. Think of it more like your CoM is a big bowling ball that you are cradling with your legs and you need to allow those forces to move it across; but cradle it and set it down gently on the snow, rather then dropping it or even worse tossing it that way.

use counter balancing movements and ski tipping with the legs rather then hip angulatiin to contribute to balance such that you set the bowling ball down gently, not toppling, not falling, not throwing

 

[dj61]

Yes, her upper body is downhill from her feet alright and that is because she sent her feet up hill!!!

as Einstein said: that is all relative…. A matter of perspective.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

If you fall away from the edge you compromise engagement. That is why no bueno. That is the same reason we angulate. It’s balance management. Toppling and falling away from the ski is counter productive.

Ah okay perfect, I totally understand. I made a diagram of the ideal skier, who is angulating but not moving away from the edge, so that we might all have an example of what to look for when we do MA.

 

[cantunamunch]

^can I use this in the fat ski vs. narrow ski angulation subthread?

 

[oldschoolskier]

Time to go back and re-read Newton's laws! That (Newton's first law) only applies if you are at rest, or in motion at a constant speed in a straight line. That ain't how we ski. Newton's second law covers how we turn, speed up, and slow down -- with non-zero net forces.

One is a static application, the other a non static, maybe you should re read them yourself and study a bit of engineering. It is about the concept of what that law means. Changes mean that the forces are biased one way or the other.

In terms of balance or toppling a net zero is the goal for balance for toppling it is biased on one direction.

How we ski is the manipulation of the net zero and non net zero point, understanding these in very simplistic terms is how we solve very complex issues.

But Newtons three simple laws describe what we do in skiing very clearly.

 

[James]

I mean you start skiing between opposing edges and then start moving in from the outside edge. The better you get the further away you get from that outside edge generally at some point in the turn.

“Throwing the feet out to the side”, as seems to be all the rage on page 13, means you have zero edge engagement until the edge lands back on the snow. “Early edge engagement” was all the rage on page four I think. So, let’s carry on to page 22 and see when the aliens help out with turns.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

^can I use this in the fat ski vs. narrow ski angulation subthread?

Only if you promise it's for good and not evil.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

I mean you start skiing between opposing edges and then start moving in from the outside edge. The better you get the further away you get from that outside edge generally at some point in the turn.

“Throwing the feet out to the side”, as seems to be all the rage on page 13, means you have zero edge engagement until the edge lands back on the snow. “Early edge engagement” was all the rage on page four I think. So, let’s carry on to page 22 and see when the aliens help out with turns.

Ha - it has transitioned back into the Transitioning and Ankle Roll thread. A full circle of thought imbalance.

 

[dj61]

 

[cantunamunch]

That Mizuno suit looks horrible at that angle.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I don’t get this idea the upper body is a frozen sack of potatoes at the mercy of the feet. If your body is too far uphill at transition, no amount of foot action is going to release it like you want.

Instead of toppling, how about hurling the upperbody into the turn?

I like "hurling." Or "diving."
I'd like to be comfortable with doing either one day.

 

[cantunamunch]

I like "hurling."

Implies muscular action at transition. I can hurl myself through a window but not without jumping off.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

I tend to think that some of the best coaches in this area will often alternate between terminology that implies a lot of control and terminology that implies very little control. Some people really want to be warned ahead of time about the feeling of it, and clam up if they experience it without a lot of warning. Some people really flinch if they're told that they're going to even momentarily lose control, and are reassured by sort of going in with their blinders on, with just purely instructions about where their body should be. I don't think there's a magic term that truly captures the entire nuance of it – it's just figuring out what that person needs to get there.

 

[razie]

The up and over drill is a good example of fixing toppling problems and has nothing to do with OLR style transitions. OLR vs ILE makes no difference here, the act of toppling or diving or pushing your CoM into the middle of the turn leads to loss of edge engagement, due to developing imbalance to the inside.

yes we can and should use both gravity and momentum to carry our CoM across into the inside of the new turn, but not to the point of “falling” there or toppling there. Think of it more like your CoM is a big bowling ball that you are cradling with your legs and you need to allow those forces to move it across; but cradle it and set it down gently on the snow, rather then dropping it or even worse tossing it that way.

use counter balancing movements and ski tipping with the legs rather then hip angulatiin to contribute to balance such that you set the bowling ball down gently, not toppling, not falling, not throwing

Yeah. There is a thing called the "COM release" in the USSA. I think 300 GS technique and tactics. Where they discuss releasing the COM before the feet, it has some benefits - if the feet are not released yet, you're basically lobbing the COM into the new turn. Could be related to toppling to some extent. There... no toppling, no pushing, no falling - let's call it "lobbing" the body at the next turn.

Aside from that, I think the general contention is that, while hopefully unweighted and say floating, stuff still needs to happen. The body continues moving towards the next apex and the skis keep moving to get in position and "catch" it etc, while separation keeps everything moving independently. Maybe toppling is in there somewhere. Some could "help" the body to move a little faster into the new turn, it usually quickens the turn, as the feet need to come around quicker to catch the thing or boom - the problem is obviously if the COM gets to far ahead of the feet in the GRF direction, you get boom. Or too far inside the turn (i.e. far from the feet), boom. Or faceplant in my case... to each his or her own.

Initially TomG came up with the toppling as an aid to get people to move inside the new turn and get bigger angles, as I remember. I certainly prefer to let me feet do the talking... and don't use anything like toppling in instruction... but to each his or her own - maybe it does work in some cases?

 

[Seldomski]

I tend to think that some of the best coaches in this area will often alternate between terminology that implies a lot of control and terminology that implies very little control. Some people really want to be warned ahead of time about the feeling of it, and clam up if they experience it without a lot of warning. Some people really flinch if they're told that they're going to even momentarily lose control, and are reassured by sort of going in with their blinders on, with just purely instructions about where their body should be. I don't think there's a magic term that truly captures the entire nuance of it – it's just figuring out what that person needs to get there.

Agree. FWIW I was told to "topple" and it helped me a great deal at that time. When told to go a mile, I would move an inch. So "toppling" was ok for me in that context.

I survived the experience somehow. I don't really think about toppling anymore when I ski. I take lessons periodically so I dont get stuck on the last thing said to me - otherwise I could exaggerate that tip beyond what the coach wanted.

So in context of OP, I remain unconvinced that the use of the word "topple" was ever a problem.

 

[stevo]

Yeah. There is a thing called the "COM release" in the USSA. I think 300 GS technique and tactics. Where they discuss releasing the COM before the feet, it has some benefits - if the feet are not released yet, you're basically lobbing the COM into the new turn. Could be related to toppling to some extent. There... no toppling, no pushing, no falling - let's call it "lobbing" the body at the next turn.

I have to disagree with you. Perhaps. First, I pretty much always release my CoM before the ski edges are released. Perhaps you should explain what you mean by "release the feet". The CoM pretty much always is released prior to the edges..so... I don't see the relevance here. I guess a cross under style transition might release the ski edges first..but that isn't really what we're talking about here.

The question: is whether you should go out of balance by allowing your CoM to topple, fall, drop, be thrown or lobbed; to the inside. Counter balancing efforts can be made to avoid such things whenever possible. It goes without saying that there could be extreme situations where ideal balance cannot be maintained due to course set, etc..in which case recovery moves will be imminent...fine...but I see nothing about a CoM release...that means you have to actually "lob" it, other then perhaps extreme situations, which you went on to explain further below.....

Some could "help" the body to move a little faster into the new turn, it usually quickens the turn, as the feet need to come around quicker to catch the thing or boom - the problem is obviously if the COM gets to far ahead of the feet in the GRF direction, you get boom. Or too far inside the turn (i.e. far from the feet), boom. Or faceplant in my case... to each his or her own.

There can obviously be cases where a racer may need to make a radical move, despite some undesirable consequences. That is the whole point of making course sets difficult to force such things. still, they will be compromising high-C engagement and probably compromising engagement in other phases of the turn...and yes they will have to recover from that and yes that will be more difficult and less smooth. All things that recreational skiers don't have to worry about, they can retain engagement, balance, smooth skiing, smooth control, grace and all the rest because no course is forcing them to compromise those things.

Initially TomG came up with the toppling as an aid to get people to move inside the new turn and get bigger angles, as I remember. I certainly prefer to let me feet do the talking... and don't use anything like toppling in instruction... but to each his or her own - maybe it does work in some cases?

The word toppling has been around a lot longer than TomG. He didn't come up with the term. He may have promoted it at some point.

As I already said several days ago, there can be a time and place for using the term, perhaps for someone who is fundamentally blocked from moving across or at the other end, someone who is throwing themselves too aggressively. A stepping stone concept. But I also feel that if left to fester the meme inspires imbalanced skiing, and balance is a sensory thing and a lot of people are skiing around without a well defined feel for what it even means to be in balance on a ski and milking all the goodness out of the ski edge. But hey...knock yourselves out..whatever makes you happy. But if you fall (or lob) away from your edge...you are compromising engagement through some phases of your turn. Might even encounter a snow snake. ;-) May be a suitable compromise in some cases of course, but the compromise needs to be acknowledged.

 

[Zirbl]

First, I pretty much always release my CoM before the ski edges are released.

Interesting. How are you doing that without pushing, throwing, diving, etc.?

I guess a cross under style transition might release the ski edges first..but that isn't really what we're talking about here.

I thought it was pretty much all anyone talks about on here.