Toppling

[Skitechniek]

Just watched this video. Carv is really killing it with their content btw. Their marketing is really on point and cool to see so many good skiers being connected to the brand.

But what caught my attention is 'toppling'. I really don't like the concept, big no-no in racing. But I'd love to hear toppling advocates speak on the matter. Any thoughts?

And does anyone know who 'Alex' in this video is?
Blue trousers, from the 17 second mark. Absolutely brutal skiing. Best skiing I've seen appear on the channel so far, but unfortunately he/she (I think 'she' judging by the skiing and body posture/type) has no vids of his/her own. For sure raced at a high level. Does someone have a name for me?

Is he/she toppling?

 

[Prosper]

There's some discussion about toppling here https://www.skitalk.com/threads/35.20708/page-2 starting at post #32 and going on for a couple of pages.

 

[Henry]

Here's Ted Ligety. Is he "toppling" into the beginning of the turn in images 6-7-8? How else is one to get on the new inside edges before the skis are aimed down the fall line? (I'll never ski like Ted, but I want to use the same fundamental movements he uses...and Michela uses, and Marcel uses.)

 

[geepers]

In the new CSIA Physics of Skiing manual we fall/topple out of one turn into the next.

Maybe call it a fopple?

 

[Skitechniek]

Is he "toppling" into the beginning of the turn in images 6-7-8? How else is one to get on the new inside edges before the skis are aimed down the fall line?

View attachment 116326

Hard to tell from an image.
By tipping the ski on edge.
I would never want to use a movement that uses the top half of the kinetic chain first, which toppling is to me. Falling inside is not tipping, it's an upperbody movement. Why would I want to move my upper body away from my lower body/BoS? Only causes you to have the weight on the inside and it's a recipe for trouble.

What is wrong with moving towards the BoS with the upper half and tipping the lower half?

@jimtransition
That for sure is not Alex Taugwalder, pretty sure it's a woman anyway. Look at her alpine basic position and shape of the body e.g.. Big hips/bottom, arched back. Furthermore the upperbody is quite crouched/far forward, which is the most balanced position for a female because the CoM of a female is farther back than that of a male. Apart from that, judging from the ski style I think he/she isn't Swiss either. Very different style imho. And didn't Taugwalder ski EC? That's pretty good...

 

[dbostedo]

Guessing Alex is Alex Taugwaulder, Swiss demo team guy who is on projected productions. Don't think he raced at a super high level, but still trains GS a lot.

I think the "Alex" in the video is a woman though. (Unless I'm embarrasingly mistaken, or misunderstanding the video.)

 

[jimtransition]

Just watched this video. Carv is really killing it with their content btw. Their marketing is really on point and cool to see so many good skiers being connected to the brand.

But what caught my attention is 'toppling'. I really don't like the concept, big no-no in racing. But I'd love to hear toppling advocates speak on the matter. Any thoughts?

And does anyone know who 'Alex' in this video is?
Blue trousers, from the 17 second mark. Absolutely brutal skiing. Best skiing I've seen appear on the channel so far, but unfortunately he/she (I think 'she' judging by the skiing and body posture/type) has no vids of his/her own. For sure raced at a high level. Does someone have a name for me?

Is he/she toppling?

I think the "Alex" in the video is a woman though. (Unless I'm embarrasingly mistaken, or misunderstanding the video.)

Haha yeah I wasn't watching close enough

 

[jimtransition]

After checking the carv insta, she is Alex Athelman, she is at least Swiss

 

[martyg]

Toppling is a phrase that Ron LaMaster embraces and uses often. If it is a no-no in racing, I would think that his affinitey to the word would not be as prevelent.

 

[Skitechniek]

After checking the carv insta, she is Alex Athelman, she is at least Swiss

Thanks!! I found her on the insta page too. It's Thalmann though. She raced EC. Really nice skiing. Funny, she is Swiss indeed! I really didn't think that, I would have guessed German. Maybe she got trained by Germans, but that is unlikely. Thanks again!

 

[Tony S]

Hard to tell from an image.
By tipping the ski on edge.
I would never want to use a movement that uses the top half of the kinetic chain first, which toppling is to me. Falling inside is not tipping, it's an upperbody movement. Why would I want to move my upper body away from my lower body/BoS? Only causes you to have the weight on the inside and it's a recipe for trouble.

It causes inside weighting if you do it at the wrong moment, and/or aren't confident and balanced enough on the outside to keep the inside retracting and light. The reason you might want to move your upper body away from the BOS is that you want it to be over the spot where the BOS will be in a moment. Otherwise it's a game of catch-up.

 

[rustypouch]

Hard to tell from an image.
By tipping the ski on edge.
I would never want to use a movement that uses the top half of the kinetic chain first, which toppling is to me. Falling inside is not tipping, it's an upperbody movement. Why would I want to move my upper body away from my lower body/BoS? Only causes you to have the weight on the inside and it's a recipe for trouble.

What is wrong with moving towards the BoS with the upper half and tipping the lower half?

@jimtransition
That for sure is not Alex Taugwalder, pretty sure it's a woman anyway. Look at her alpine basic position and shape of the body e.g.. Big hips/bottom, arched back. Furthermore the upperbody is quite crouched/far forward, which is the most balanced position for a female because the CoM of a female is farther back than that of a male. Apart from that, judging from the ski style I think he/she isn't Swiss either. Very different style imho. And didn't Taugwalder ski EC? That's pretty good...

But toppling, at least in the new CSIA term, doesn't use the top half of the kinetic chain first.

It is an upperbody movement, but the movement is a result, an outcome. What initiates it is lightening the new inside leg. If done right, it's a way to put pressure on the new outside ski higher up in the turn, allowing rounder turns and more grip.

 

[Tony S]

If done right, it's a way to put pressure on the new outside ski higher up in the turn, allowing rounder turns and more grip.

Right. It's countersteering, as others have pointed out.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....I would never want to use a movement that uses the top half of the kinetic chain first, which toppling is to me. Falling inside is not tipping, it's an upperbody movement. Why would I want to move my upper body away from my lower body/BoS? Only causes you to have the weight on the inside and it's a recipe for trouble.....

Mikaela Shiffren.

Ted Ligety.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Hard to tell from an image.
By tipping the ski on edge.
I would never want to use a movement that uses the top half of the kinetic chain first, which toppling is to me. Falling inside is not tipping, it's an upperbody movement. Why would I want to move my upper body away from my lower body/BoS? Only causes you to have the weight on the inside and it's a recipe for trouble.

What is wrong with moving towards the BoS with the upper half and tipping the lower half?

Ja, I agree entirely. I guess words mean different things to different people (especially in English) but I’ve never liked the “toppling” idea. To me it connotes letting your upper body fall over a static base.

 

[Average Joe]

But toppling, at least in the new CSIA term, doesn't use the top half of the kinetic chain first.

It is an upperbody movement, but the movement is a result, an outcome. What initiates it is lightening the new inside leg.

Ding!
The movement is the shortening/lightening/whatever of the old outside leg.
The outcome is the so called "toppling."
When we teach the outcome instead of the movement, we end up in circular discussions in places like Internet forums.

 

[Average Joe]

Here's Ted Ligety. Is he "toppling" into the beginning of the turn in images 6-7-8? How else is one to get on the new inside edges before the skis are aimed down the fall line? (I'll never ski like Ted, but I want to use the same fundamental movements he uses...and Michela uses, and Marcel uses.)

View attachment 116326

In frames 1-3, Ted is fully extended and edges engaged. In frame 4 we can see a slight flexing of the outside leg, and in frame 5 he has actively released pressure and retracted both skis in transition.
The movement is the release, the outcome is that his upper body, by frames 6 and 7, has "toppled" over the skis.

 

[James]

I really don't like the concept, big no-no in racing.

I don’t like the word. Trees topple. Buildings topple. Regimes topple.

You need to be constantly moving, not a static upperbody that suddenly “topples” like chopping down a tree.

I don’t get your “no-no”. Of course you move your body away from the base of support. You’re moving.
Kind of like saying leaning a bicycle is a no-no, no?

 

[mdf]

I still like the toppling mnemonic on steeps, where the release needs to be be emphatic.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I don’t get your “no-no”. Of course you move your body away from the base of support. You’re moving.
Kind of like saying leaning a bicycle is a no-no, no?

After due reflection, I’d say no. Or maybe yes, it depends