Uncertified Instructors

[Chris V.]

I love the markup. I only get charged out at like four times my salary. I shudda taken business...

4x wages is actually a big improvement, from the instructor's point of view, over what has prevailed at many mountains in recent years.

 

[Jilly]

I get that sometimes especially with really young kids, a skiing babysitter is what is needed and not a totally certified instructor. But anything else I could see an issue.

Question 1 - what happens in a country that likes to sue at any injury with an un-certified instructor? As a certified L2 member of the CSIA I'm covered by my membership insurance. I suppose that Vail is in a position to take on any lawsuit.
Question 2 - is this all VR resorts or just Vail Mountain? They could have some issues at WB.

 

[fatbob]

Question 2 - is this all VR resorts or just Vail Mountain? They could have some issues at WB.

I thought WB basically invented this?

-Take young aussies fresh off the plane.
-Process them through a pre-season training course even if they haven't really skied before.
- Chuck em into kids ski school before the holidays start
- Don't care too much if some f off back to Oz after Oz Day for uni etc.

 

[Jilly]

Far as I know you have to be an L1 to join a snow school in Canada. Which means you need to ski above a level 4 as your skis need to be parallel on a blue run.

 

[Brian Finch]

Bigger issue than if your kid gets a good lesson, what is the industry doing to keep long term pipelines of snow pros going?

Subpar staff inspires no one to join up, kinda a inertia spiral.

 

[geepers]

Far as I know you have to be an L1 to join a snow school in Canada. Which means you need to ski above a level 4 as your skis need to be parallel on a blue run.

As I understand it Canadian resorts run their own CSIA L1 instructor courses. The courses are conducted by CSIA L3 instructors who have done the appropriate CSIA workshops/exams in order to deliver the L1 course. IIRC the course fee goes to the resort and those L3s wear resort uniform.

When I did L1 5 years back there was a gap year guy who was re-sitting the course. Turned out it was his 3rd time attempting L1 so it's not a laydown misère that people will pass those L1 courses - it's up to the resort L3s and their judgement. Can't see ski schools wanting to pass too many sub-standard people as it creates a customer complaints problem. (BTW the gap guy passed that 3rd time.)

L2 and onwards the courses are conducted by CSIA by appropriately credentialed L4 instructors (wearing CSIA uniform). Fee goes to CSIA and the resort simply provides the infrastructure.

Not sure if the situation is the same in Australia APSI but saw L1 courses this season where the conductor was in resort uniform. Also see higher level courses where the conductor is in APSI uniform. So suspect it is similar concept.

 

[Tony S]

Skill Level 4: "...you should be nearly parallel on green runs and perhaps even a few easy blue runs."
Well--good enough to teach first time children. Barely.

Teaching adults their first and second days on snow doesn't take much more in skiing skill. Teaching skill is probably more important, and that can be taught quickly in clinics. A few essential things like selecting & buckling rental boots (the rent shop guys have a different agenda; get the crowd out the door), wedge stops & turns, chair lifts, etc., don't need a high level instructor. These skills do take a suitably trained instructor.

Don't we think that even / especially beginners should have good models?

 

[4ster]

Vail Resorts workers say efforts to improve employee experience at odds with class-action settlement

Amid Vail Resorts efforts to present itself as a company that prioritizes resort talent, a lawsuit involving many of the company's employees isn't helping that end.

www.vaildaily.com

 

[Brian Finch]

Don't we think that even / especially beginners should have good models?

Beginners need the best models.

However, I understand what the most skilled instructors often spend their most time with near autonomous level skiers. 5-year-olds tend to be rather poor with their tipping practices.

 

[pchewn]

I was a 1st-year uncertified instructor last season at Timberline Lodge (USA, Oregon). I wanted the experience of teaching for these reasons:

• To get the free clinics to improve my teaching and my skiing.
• To ski with a group of good skiers.
• A few benefits like season pass, getting nominally paid.
• As a motivating factor to get out there and ski more.

The ski school was desperate for instructors last season. They were often begging instructors to come up for more lessons, more hours. The pre-season training (classroom and on-hill) weeded out zero people. 100% were offered jobs. Even some that I would not trust to be in charge of their own underwear drawer, let alone a class of beginner children on a ski hill.

I enjoyed 70% of my time instructing. Some of the unenjoyable 30% was brutal (8 first-time beginner kids, some crying, others bombing the hill, chaos). Some of the 70% was very very satisfying: seeing some "ah ha!" moments in the students, getting tipped $$$.

This was my very 1st experience in any service/hospitality type of job (age 65). My prior jobs were labor (irrigation) and engineering (product design). What a difference!

I'm not likely to repeat next season. Reasons:

• Takes away time from skiing with son and grandsons
• Too much "lineup/check-in" action with unsure results.
• Frankly, instructing is hard work and this retired guy just wants to ski
• Extremely low pay. I can make $80/hr doing short-term engineering contracting. Only $13.xx/hr for ski instructing. I don't need the money. But checking in every hour for 10 minutes of on-the-clock pay at low wages is just not worth it.
• Timecards, emails, corporate training (workplace behavior, etc) all of that work-related bullcrap.
• To advance and succeed more would be costly in time and $$ to get certifications. Not worth it.

I'm glad I did it, but I'll also be glad not to be repeating it.

 

[Philpug]

FIFY

You forgot the "Go get 'em Tiger"

 

[MattFromCanada]

As I understand it Canadian resorts run their own CSIA L1 instructor courses. The courses are conducted by CSIA L3 instructors who have done the appropriate CSIA workshops/exams in order to deliver the L1 course. IIRC the course fee goes to the resort and those L3s wear resort uniform.

When I did L1 5 years back there was a gap year guy who was re-sitting the course. Turned out it was his 3rd time attempting L1 so it's not a laydown misère that people will pass those L1 courses - it's up to the resort L3s and their judgement. Can't see ski schools wanting to pass too many sub-standard people as it creates a customer complaints problem. (BTW the gap guy passed that 3rd time.)

L2 and onwards the courses are conducted by CSIA by appropriately credentialed L4 instructors (wearing CSIA uniform). Fee goes to CSIA and the resort simply provides the infrastructure.

Not sure if the situation is the same in Australia APSI but saw L1 courses this season where the conductor was in resort uniform. Also see higher level courses where the conductor is in APSI uniform. So suspect it is similar concept.

Certain resorts run in-house sessions but the CSIA is moving away from that. Generally it’s the larger resorts with more “pull” in the industry that do that.

When I was running level 1s at a dinky little ski area in Vancouver I wore the CSIA uniform even though it was my home hill at the time, since they didn’t have a re-seller agreement with the CSIA.

For the smaller areas that don’t have a training staff, the CSIA will send someone over to do it, the more remote the location, the more likely they will find someone young and without a family to do it! It won’t necessarily be a L3 either. L4 so can (and do from my experience) end up running level 1 courses. The CSIA’s travel expense remittance is rather generous and some people are keen to have a subsidized working ski-holiday to a different resort they might not normally visit.

For resorts that do run their own courses, they have to kick back $250 or so to the CSIA, so anything above that is a nice revenue generator, especially considering the volume of exam-takers who are there solely for the ski-improvement.

 

[BMC]

Skill Level 4: "...you should be nearly parallel on green runs and perhaps even a few easy blue runs."
Well--good enough to teach first time children. Barely.

Teaching adults their first and second days on snow doesn't take much more in skiing skill. Teaching skill is probably more important, and that can be taught quickly in clinics. A few essential things like selecting & buckling rental boots (the rent shop guys have a different agenda; get the crowd out the door), wedge stops & turns, chair lifts, etc., don't need a high level instructor. These skills do take a suitably trained instructor.

Many years ago I did the hiring clinic for a reputable mountain ski school. The ones there opting for the children‘s program pretty much had a guaranteed job no matter their skiing ability provided they passed the working with children checks. I believe the attitude of the ski school was that they could teach the candidates how to ski, but for the bulk of them escorting 7 year olds on bunny slopes and watching Frozen in the regular indoor breaks, high end skis skill wasn’t the most important prerequisite.

So to be honest I‘m not seeing much of a problem here. I assume Vail has similar intentions.

 

[fatbob]

• Takes away time from skiing with son and grandsons
• Too much "lineup/check-in" action with unsure results.
• Frankly, instructing is hard work and this retired guy just wants to ski
• Extremely low pay. I can make $80/hr doing short-term engineering contracting. Only $13.xx/hr for ski instructing. I don't need the money. But checking in every hour for 10 minutes of on-the-clock pay at low wages is just not worth it.
• Timecards, emails, corporate training (workplace behavior, etc) all of that work-related bullcrap.
• To advance and succeed more would be costly in time and $$ to get certifications. Not worth it.

You look at that laudry list and think well that probably is fine for someone young on the starting rungs of their career. But then you realise there is no real career ladder in ski instruction and think that any young person is mad for pursing it in preference to an entry level role in tech or just about anything else.

 

[Tony S]

Some of the unenjoyable 30% was brutal (8 first-time beginner kids, some crying, others bombing the hill, chaos).

Every time I think about teaching at some point in my future, this is exactly the scene that comes to mind and quickly shuts down the idea.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I was a 1st-year uncertified instructor last season at Timberline Lodge (USA, Oregon). I wanted the experience of teaching for these reasons:

• To get the free clinics to improve my teaching and my skiing.
• To ski with a group of good skiers.
• A few benefits like season pass, getting nominally paid.
• As a motivating factor to get out there and ski more.

The ski school was desperate for instructors last season. They were often begging instructors to come up for more lessons, more hours. The pre-season training (classroom and on-hill) weeded out zero people. 100% were offered jobs. Even some that I would not trust to be in charge of their own underwear drawer, let alone a class of beginner children on a ski hill.

I enjoyed 70% of my time instructing. Some of the unenjoyable 30% was brutal (8 first-time beginner kids, some crying, others bombing the hill, chaos). Some of the 70% was very very satisfying: seeing some "ah ha!" moments in the students, getting tipped $$$.

This was my very 1st experience in any service/hospitality type of job (age 65). My prior jobs were labor (irrigation) and engineering (product design). What a difference!

I'm not likely to repeat next season. Reasons:

• Takes away time from skiing with son and grandsons
• Too much "lineup/check-in" action with unsure results.
• Frankly, instructing is hard work and this retired guy just wants to ski
• Extremely low pay. I can make $80/hr doing short-term engineering contracting. Only $13.xx/hr for ski instructing. I don't need the money. But checking in every hour for 10 minutes of on-the-clock pay at low wages is just not worth it.
• Timecards, emails, corporate training (workplace behavior, etc) all of that work-related bullcrap.
• To advance and succeed more would be costly in time and $$ to get certifications. Not worth it.

I'm glad I did it, but I'll also be glad not to be repeating it.

As ski season gets a bit closer, I've started thinking again about maybe teaching this season. I got my letter from the ski school asking me whether I was coming back the other day, and I actually started thinking of saying yes.

Thanks @pchewn for this post. It jolted me into realizing I want to say no. Your list reminded me of how many reasons there were for me to stop teaching. I miss the actual teaching, but not the rest. I'll add one more thing to your list, which was pivotal in my decision to stop teaching.

• Not getting the teaching assignments I wanted. Most of our private lessons were for kids so I had to teach too many 3-4-5-6-7 year olds when I really wanted to teach adults.

 

[Philpug]

I have no problem bringing lower level instructors in, they have to start somewhere. But when you are charging the consumer the same amount for that entry level instructor as a high level one, that is deceptive business practices. Imagine walking into a steak house and ordering a $70 steak and not knowing if you are going to get an aged ribeye or a Salsbury steak but you are charged the same.

Have your beginner instructors, but charge your customer accordingly. I am not sure if it is bait and switch, but it is pretty darn close.

 

[cantunamunch]

Have your beginner instructors, but charge your customer accordingly. I am not sure if it is bait and switch, but it is pretty darn close.

One of the things Snowtime had that was awesome is prepaid "Mountain Passport" drop-in lessons. If you had a Mountain Passport, you could no-fee drop into any regularly scheduled group lesson for the rest of the season. No fee. No reservation. If they had an instructor/group there that fit you, show up and go. Tipping optional

Now VR absolutely do know about that program since they now own the Snowtime resorts and have had umpteen dozen requests to restore the program since the takeover.

I don't say they will attempt to bring it back, let alone institute it at resorts that didn't have it previously. But, if they did, a recruitment policy like the one in OP would be a good place to start.

I also notice that a recruitment policy like the one in the OP might be seen as a way to combat staff housing problems at destination resorts, as locally recruited talent would presumably already have their own housing, whereas working visa talent would not.

All that said, @LiquidFeet 's concerns above are perfectly valid. And they match up to why I quit teaching skating

@johnnyvw you laugh - but wait until you see NC lift lines

 

[martyg]

I was a 1st-year uncertified instructor last season at Timberline Lodge (USA, Oregon). I wanted the experience of teaching for these reasons:

• To get the free clinics to improve my teaching and my skiing.
• To ski with a group of good skiers.
• A few benefits like season pass, getting nominally paid.
• As a motivating factor to get out there and ski more.

The ski school was desperate for instructors last season. They were often begging instructors to come up for more lessons, more hours. The pre-season training (classroom and on-hill) weeded out zero people. 100% were offered jobs. Even some that I would not trust to be in charge of their own underwear drawer, let alone a class of beginner children on a ski hill.

I enjoyed 70% of my time instructing. Some of the unenjoyable 30% was brutal (8 first-time beginner kids, some crying, others bombing the hill, chaos). Some of the 70% was very very satisfying: seeing some "ah ha!" moments in the students, getting tipped $$$.

This was my very 1st experience in any service/hospitality type of job (age 65). My prior jobs were labor (irrigation) and engineering (product design). What a difference!

I'm not likely to repeat next season. Reasons:

• Takes away time from skiing with son and grandsons
• Too much "lineup/check-in" action with unsure results.
• Frankly, instructing is hard work and this retired guy just wants to ski
• Extremely low pay. I can make $80/hr doing short-term engineering contracting. Only $13.xx/hr for ski instructing. I don't need the money. But checking in every hour for 10 minutes of on-the-clock pay at low wages is just not worth it.
• Timecards, emails, corporate training (workplace behavior, etc) all of that work-related bullcrap.
• To advance and succeed more would be costly in time and $$ to get certifications. Not worth it.

I'm glad I did it, but I'll also be glad not to be repeating it.

Great post.

While this is getting away from the thread... As I have often said, working as a ski instructor is like dating someone where the sex is other-worldly, but they treat you like shit. At some point, you just have to show some respect to yourself.

 

[martyg]

An instructor working a full-time schedule grosses a large destination resort about $150,000 a season. The cost to, say, Vail of this revenue is about $10,000 in pay plus the cost of fringe benefits (health insurance after 500 hours worked!), training, uniform, etc. - say an incremental $4,000 to be very generous. So $125,000+ per “instructor” straight to the bottom line. Based on those economics who wouldn’t hire as many warm bodies as possible, regardless of their skills?

I believe in the last SAM survey, ski schools 9of the resorts that participated) realized a 49% margin after all expenses. Still, nice margin.