eBike USFS Designates E-Bikes “Motorized Vehicles”

[4ster]

I encourage anyone who has an E-MTB or thinks they may ride one in the future to comment in favor of the proposed re-designation for Class 1 E-MTB's on some trails. Even if you are not in the area or never plan to visit, this is the first attempt I've seen like this on Forest Service land since everything was lumped together when this thread began.

The outcome of this proposal could have a positive effect nationwide, so input is needed now! The proposal is also fully endorsed by TAMBA, (Tahoe Area Mountain Bike Association).
Here is a link to the comment page:

US Forest Service NEPA Projects Home

cara.fs2c.usda.gov

 

[AmyPJ]

I like the sign but it kind makes the other one hard to read.And you know someone with a different brand would say, "but it's not a Surron!" because, well, PEOPLE!

Yeah, they can't read until it suits them, right?

 

[Tom K.]

& except for egos they bruise nothing

Nail.

On head.

I encourage anyone who has an E-MTB or thinks they may ride one in the future to comment in favor of the proposed re-designation for Class 1 E-MTB's on some trails.

Do you have easy access to a link to some suggested language from a local organization?

Otherwise I'm just writing "what 4ster says".

 

[RiderRay]

Yeah, I didn’t get it either…
… till I rode one!

Class 1 E-bikes deserve their own designation & shouldn’t be lumped in with other motorized bikes. They are great on traditional non-motorized MTB trails & except for egos they bruise nothing.
I can ride instead of drive to the trailhead.
I can tow the kids where I would otherwise have to drive them.
The best part is that I can ride with my younger friends & family again & not feel like I am holding them up.

Yes, all you said is true. But they are still motorized.

 

[RiderRay]

That's why they had to redesignate the trails as motorized with restrictions (class 1 only) instead of no motorized with a class 1 exception. The FS is recognizing, at least in the Tahoe Basin, that C1 bikes are only pedal assist, no throttle. They must have also looked at the studies by IMBA and others that show these bikes don't do any more trail damage than an analog bike.

Thanks for the explainaton. Now it makes more sense.

 

[1Turn2Many]

The government finally got something right. I’d just about give up.

 

[4ster]

Sorry, I wrote this yesterday but forgot to post…

Nail.

On head.



Do you have easy access to a link to some suggested language from a local organization?

Otherwise I'm just writing "what 4ster says".

I have not seen anything & I seem to recall the last time I commented on something like this there was.
TAMBA is where I got the link. They seem to be sticking to the company line that they are not law makers or enforcement. They have stated that they are in support of the proposal.

I wrote pretty long comment but the jist of it was that E- MTB’s are the great equalizer…

Class 1 E-bikes deserve their own designation & shouldn’t be lumped in with other motorized bikes. They are great on traditional non-motorized MTB trails & except for egos they bruise nothing.
I can ride instead of drive to the trailhead.
I can tow the kids where I would otherwise have to drive them.
The best part is that I can ride with my younger friends & family again & not feel like I am holding them up.

 

[4ster]

Yes, all you said is true. But they are still motorized.

Yes, but the designation was made before Class 1 E-MTB’s existed. We are not talking about Wilderness areas where all “mechanized vehicles” are prohibited, these are multi-use public lands.
The best way to understand is to spend some time riding one.

 

[PaganSkier]

The one big issue I have with ebikes is the dangers they present on two-way trails. If I am descending at 15-20 mph, and come around a bend and meet an ebike that is climbing at 15-20 mph rather than the expected 5 mph human powered MTB, the closing speed is quite dangerous. This has become a real issue on trails in Summit County where fire break clear cuts are now filling in with densely growing pencil stands of lodgepole pine. After 30+ years of mountain biking, my brain isn't going to easily recalibrate to expect and react to meeting a silent motorcycle. Keep those things on directional only trails.

 

[1Turn2Many]

The one big issue I have with ebikes is the dangers they present on two-way trails. If I am descending at 15-20 mph, and come around a bend and meet an ebike that is climbing at 15-20 mph rather than the expected 5 mph human powered MTB, the closing speed is quite dangerous. This has become a real issue on trails in Summit County where fire break clear cuts are now filling in with densely growing pencil stands of lodgepole pine. After 30+ years of mountain biking, my brain isn't going to easily recalibrate to expect and react to meeting a silent motorcycle. Keep those things on directional only trails.

Yeah, and also, e-bikes cause far more trail damage because their motors put significantly more torque to the dirt, especially when climbing.

 

[Philpug]

Yeah, and also, e-bikes cause far more trail damage because their motors put significantly more torque to the dirt, especially when climbing.

Have you read the actual studies that they do not cause any more damage than an analog bike? In over 3,000 miles if riding, I have yet to spit up any rocks/dirt on a trail. As someone who does trail maintenence, If you want to talk about trail damage, I suggest you look at all the riders, analog and all who kick out the tail when cornering.

 

[1Turn2Many]

Have you read the actual studies that they do not cause any more damage than an analog bike? In over 3,000 miles if riding, I have yet to spit up any rocks/dirt on a trail. As someone who does trail maintenence, If you want to talk about trail damage, I suggest you look at all the riders, analog and all who kick out the tail when cornering.

I remember the first time I observed acceleration tire ruts on a long climb on my favorite trail. I was dumbfounded trying to figure out how a rider could do that until a few days later when I saw an ebike rider smoking up the hill throwing a rooster tail. Analog riders can only kick out the tail going downhill. E-bikes can do it up and down because, well, they have a motor. Also, if you’ve never spit up any dirt, you’re doing something wrong.

 

[Tricia]

The one big issue I have with ebikes is the dangers they present on two-way trails. If I am descending at 15-20 mph, and come around a bend and meet an ebike that is climbing at 15-20 mph rather than the expected 5 mph human powered MTB, the closing speed is quite dangerous. This has become a real issue on trails in Summit County where fire break clear cuts are now filling in with densely growing pencil stands of lodgepole pine. After 30+ years of mountain biking, my brain isn't going to easily recalibrate to expect and react to meeting a silent motorcycle. Keep those things on directional only trails.

Yeah, and also, e-bikes cause far more trail damage because their motors put significantly more torque to the dirt, especially when climbing.

I will guarantee you, I'm not climbing with my e-bike at 15-20 MPH. I doubt anyone is.

Everything in these two posts have been debunked by actual riders and actual studies.

 

[Tricia]

I remember the first time I observed acceleration tire ruts on a long climb on my favorite trail. I was dumbfounded trying to figure out how a rider could do that until a few days later when I saw an ebike rider smoking up the hill throwing a rooster tail. Analog riders can only kick out the tail going downhill. E-bikes can do it up and down because, well, they have a motor. Also, if you’ve never spit up any dirt, you’re doing something wrong.

no one is throwing a roostertail from an E assist bike.
Its not a throttle, its pedal assist.
If someone was throwing a rooster tail it was not an e-bike it was an electric bike, two different things.

 

[Philpug]

I remember the first time I observed acceleration tire ruts on a long climb on my favorite trail. I was dumbfounded trying to figure out how a rider could do that until a few days later when I saw an ebike rider smoking up the hill throwing a rooster tail.

Let me guess, he was in jeans,wearing Converse high tops and a CCM hockey helmet. He sounds the same guy that blew another member off the trail ... (who has since gotten an eMTB herself).

Analog riders can only kick out the tail going downhill.

Thus creating damage to the trail.

E-bikes can do it up and down because, well, they have a motor.

You obviously haven't ridden one.

Also, if you’ve never spit up any dirt, you’re doing something wrong.

Or something right.

 

[1Turn2Many]

I will guarantee you, I'm not climbing with my e-bike at 15-20 MPH. I doubt anyone is.

Everything in these two posts have been debunked by actual riders and actual studies.

Studies paid for by ebike funding? E-bikes cause more erosion because they are heavier and require more breaking friction. They also can spin tires easier when accelerating, just like a motorcycle. They can apply more torque and are also undeniably faster. That’s the attraction. 15 - 20 mph uphill is certainly possible. Heck, that’s possible on a real bike. There is nothing wrong with an e-bike, but it’s a different animal.

 

[Tom K.]

I feel like I'm back in the EV Vehicles Only thread!

 

[scott43]

I feel like I'm back in the EV Vehicles Only thread!

Them EVs spit rocks man. Way more torque...

 

[Tricia]

also can spin tires easier when accelerating, just like a motorcycle.

Not a motorcycle.

Studies paid for by ebike funding?

No. Studies done by bicycle groups across the board. Not e-bike specific.
In fact, one study I read from another website (maybe pink bike??) was done in an interest of showing how bad e-bikes were tearing up trails and they had to eat crow because they found that the, in fact, don't cause the damage that some thought they were.

E-bikes cause more erosion because they are heavier

By that standard, you shouldn't be allowed to ride the same trails that I ride because you're heavier than I am.
My bike is 40lbs and I'm 135 lbs. If you and your bike are more than 175 lbs then you're causing more damage to the trails. Does this mean that there should be different trails for people of different weights?

 

[Philpug]

Studies paid for by ebike funding?

actually it was funded by IMBA

eMTB Education | IMBA

As cycling technologies evolve, it is important for IMBA to continue to examine and/or clarify access policies for new uses, such as Class 1 eMTBs.

www.imba.com

I believe that is the study, if not, it is out there.

E-bikes cause more erosion because they are heavier and require more breaking friction.

OK, what is the weight limit? I am talking bike and rider? 150LB, 250LB? Does a 175lb person on a 50LB eMTB do more damage than a 225lb person on a 30lb regular bike?

That’s the attraction. 15 - 20 mph uphill is certainly possible. Heck, that’s possible on a real bike.

So, you are inavlidating @PaganSkier concern ...

The one big issue I have with ebikes is the dangers they present on two-way trails. If I am descending at 15-20 mph, and come around a bend and meet an ebike that is climbing at 15-20 mph rather than the expected 5 mph human powered MTB, the closing speed is quite dangerous.