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Vail Resorts- a new leaf?

Roundturns

Getting off the lift
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From what I have read in these posts and my own eastern resort experiences , lead me to believe that Vail resorts and their inability to open lifts, make snow,etc is purvasive and not limited to Stevens Pass. Vail is using the classic excuse of the pandemic and lack of employees for not opening up lifts and terrain. To quote Rahm Emanuel " Never let a serious crisis go to waste" You have the opportunity to do things, you think you could never do before"
A previous mountain manager from one these small eastern areas retired , and told me that without food , beverage, and special events they had taken in more revenue than in previous years because they could ask full ticket prices during the 2020 -2021 season.
He did not say it directly, but implied the reservation system was slanted toward selling non -epic pass lift tickets, by limiting pass holder reservations. Ski area capacity was never enforced that I could tell, and this small eastern resort very rarely scanned passes all day if only for an hour . During my western Vail resort visits, they did scan and enforce reservations.

The month I spend out west is the reason I continue to buy an epic pass, but now considering an a -basin pass or IKON. VR model of one size fits all does not work. MGMT of big time destination resort is way different than day trippers from big cities - can you say Steven Pass and PCMR ( partially local, partially destination)with seven Springs to follow shortly.


As an ancedotal observation;
Skiing early season this year at one of these smaller eastern resorts, I noticed that snow was made on several trails, and could have been opened for several days prior, but currently closed. I asked the ski patrol why the trails were closed, they said they had not been given the ok by the newly installed VR mnt manager to open the slopes, even though they were probably safe to ski. Because only 2 intermediate slopes were currently open ,one of which contained snowboard terrain features which required skiers of various ability levels to share the narrow slope with those jumping and riding on terrain features. . Given more choices for trail selection, I and others would have avoided this terrain feature trail.

I write this because, I have a point of reference under similiar situations between this year and last year with respect to time period, snow making, lift operations and ski area management style before VR full mgmt takeover.. By far, despite the reservation system, last year was superior as far as less wait time in the lift line and more terrain variety.

Earlier this month, there were ample periods of cold weather to make snow, which were not exploited. During the Christmas holidays, even though they only had 4 intermediate slopes open, these 4 slopes could not adequately accommodate 5000 skiers on short length hill with 500 ft vertical. Even during rain throughout the entire Holiday. I

In otherwords, either Vail resorts mismanaged its resorts in terms of lift operations or Vail resorts limited lift operations by corporate design. Vail resorts is in the snow business, they certainly know how to manage resorts when mother nature does not co -operate, but now they are immune to weather because of the epic pass sales. As someone noted in a previous post they already have your money, so why improve services?

And by the way, if VR's management team can not adequately provide the necessary workforce at its resorts, they should be replaced with a management team that can. The VR reputation is at stake here. Because of this limited resource fiasco, their season pass sales next year will surely decline. False incentives for season pass buys will not be sustainable if the lifts aren't running.
Can’t argue with any of that. Well stated IMHO. It will be interesting to see what the fall out becomes next season for VR.
 

Posaune

sliding
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Bellingham, WA
For more detailed info about the situation at Stevens Pass here is a link to a detailed article in The Everett Herald.


For those unfamiliar with Everett, it is a city in the northern end of the Seattle region that sits at the western terminus of US 2, the highway leading over Stevens Pass.
 

VickieH

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By far, despite the reservation system, last year was superior as far as less wait time in the lift line and more terrain variety.
I have also seen posts about willingness to pay a lot more for passes in order to alleviate problems.

Customers supporting higher prices and reduced access -- it's like a dream come true for VR. Another season like this and customers may demand it. [Oh, my, what's the industry to do? <insert hand wringing>]

To quote Rahm Emanuel " Never let a serious crisis go to waste" You have the opportunity to do things, you think you could never do before"

Yep. I quoted that last season in a thread because I expect changes in the industry that customers would never have wanted -- or, perhaps, tolerated -- previously. Opportunities abound.
 
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DanoT

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The month I spend out west is the reason I continue to buy an epic pass, but now considering an a -basin pass or IKON.
If you are going for a month a multi resort pass is not really needed if you just stay at one resort. Plenty of good independent resorts resorts in the weat. Just about all the resorts in western Canada not named Whistler qualify and the US dollar goes a long way in Canada.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Just about all the resorts in western Canada not named Whistler qualify and the US dollar goes a long way in Canada.

This was better left unwritten.

Think about it. Do you really want to deal with hordes on the Sunburst and Crystal Chair, cutting up freshies on Gils, taking all the tables at the Sunburst eatery?

:duck:
 

DanoT

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This was better left unwritten.

Think about it. Do you really want to deal with hordes on the Sunburst and Crystal Chair, cutting up freshies on Gils, taking all the tables at the Sunburst eatery?

:duck:
We had Gils Hill as and out of bounds benign side country powder stash for 35+years prior to Sun Peaks making it inbounds. Nowadays it's good (still not enough skiers to make moguls) but not the special place it once was, still, it is difficult to get too twisted about it.

As far as attracting new skiers goes, the north facing West Morrisey needs a chairlift, the West bowl needs a Chairlift, although I would call it the Sunny Side Chair and have it off load somewhere near the Top if the World and hike/traverse to the West Bowl, the Orient Chair needs to be extended all the way up Orient Ridge, the Elevation Chair can be extended and/or made high speed. The Crystal Chair can be high speed and converted to a 6 pack. So not to worry as I have it all planned out. ;) I just hope and pray Vail never buys the place.
 
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geepers

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We had Gils Hill as and out of bounds benign side country powder stash for 35+years prior to Sun Peaks making it inbounds. Nowadays it's good (still not enough skiers to make moguls) but not the special place it once was, still, it difficult to get too twisted about it.

As far as attracting new skiers goes, the north facing West Morrisey needs a chairlift, the West bowl needs a Chairlift, although I would call it the Sunny Side Chair and have it off load somewhere near the Top if the World and hike/traverse to the West Bowl, the Orient Chair needs to be extended all the way up Orient Ridge, the Elevation Chair can be extended and/or made high speed. The Crystal Chair can be high speed and converted to a 6 pack. So not to worry as I have it all planned out. ;) I just hope Vail never buys the place.

Yep, most resorts have an expansion plan some 10, 20, 30 years into the future. Models of which are usually covered by 20 years of dust. Always thought they were mostly to sell real estate.

Figured the addition of Gils to in-bounds was also a marketing decision. "Second biggest ski area..." promo thing. Having to hike uphill for 20 minutes for a very short run and a long, mild ski out is somewhat a disincentive. It ain't Spanky's.
 

DanoT

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Back in the day when I would hear someone say how great Gils was, I would ask if they skied it a second or third time as it can be "great" just not multi hike great. It is an easy hike but only 400' vertical.

My personal best is 5 hikes to Gils in one day. One of those hikes was with the western Canada Elan rep who afterwards said it was the best power run of his life....In the old days when it was good, it was Mike Weigle good.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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Has Vail's amazing PR machine even attempted to address this petition?
 

newboots

Learning to carve!
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From what I have read in these posts and my own eastern resort experiences , lead me to believe that Vail resorts and their inability to open lifts, make snow,etc is purvasive and not limited to Stevens Pass. Vail is using the classic excuse of the pandemic and lack of employees for not opening up lifts and terrain. To quote Rahm Emanuel " Never let a serious crisis go to waste" You have the opportunity to do things, you think you could never do before"
A previous mountain manager from one these small eastern areas retired , and told me that without food , beverage, and special events they had taken in more revenue than in previous years because they could ask full ticket prices during the 2020 -2021 season.
He did not say it directly, but implied the reservation system was slanted toward selling non -epic pass lift tickets, by limiting pass holder reservations. Ski area capacity was never enforced that I could tell, and this small eastern resort very rarely scanned passes all day if only for an hour . During my western Vail resort visits, they did scan and enforce reservations.

The month I spend out west is the reason I continue to buy an epic pass, but now considering an a -basin pass or IKON. VR model of one size fits all does not work. MGMT of big time destination resort is way different than day trippers from big cities - can you say Steven Pass and PCMR ( partially local, partially destination)with seven Springs to follow shortly.


As an ancedotal observation;
Skiing early season this year at one of these smaller eastern resorts, I noticed that snow was made on several trails, and could have been opened for several days prior, but currently closed. I asked the ski patrol why the trails were closed, they said they had not been given the ok by the newly installed VR mnt manager to open the slopes, even though they were probably safe to ski. Because only 2 intermediate slopes were currently open ,one of which contained snowboard terrain features which required skiers of various ability levels to share the narrow slope with those jumping and riding on terrain features. . Given more choices for trail selection, I and others would have avoided this terrain feature trail.

I write this because, I have a point of reference under similiar situations between this year and last year with respect to time period, snow making, lift operations and ski area management style before VR full mgmt takeover.. By far, despite the reservation system, last year was superior as far as less wait time in the lift line and more terrain variety.

Earlier this month, there were ample periods of cold weather to make snow, which were not exploited. During the Christmas holidays, even though they only had 4 intermediate slopes open, these 4 slopes could not adequately accommodate 5000 skiers on short length hill with 500 ft vertical. Even during rain throughout the entire Holiday. I

In otherwords, either Vail resorts mismanaged its resorts in terms of lift operations or Vail resorts limited lift operations by corporate design. Vail resorts is in the snow business, they certainly know how to manage resorts when mother nature does not co -operate, but now they are immune to weather because of the epic pass sales. As someone noted in a previous post they already have your money, so why improve services?

And by the way, if VR's management team can not adequately provide the necessary workforce at its resorts, they should be replaced with a management team that can. The VR reputation is at stake here. Because of this limited resource fiasco, their season pass sales next year will surely decline. False incentives for season pass buys will not be sustainable if the lifts aren't running.
Mods:
Can we change the name of this thread to “VAIL, ARE YOU LISTENING?
 
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Henry

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If you are going for a month a multi resort pass is not really needed if you just stay at one resort. Plenty of good independent resorts resorts in the weat. Just about all the resorts in western Canada not named Whistler qualify and the US dollar goes a long way in Canada.
RCR...Fernie, Kicking Horse, Nakiska, Kimberley are all Epic partners. Red Mountain, Revelstoke, Big 3 at Banff are Ikon affiliates. While a Loonie (Canadian $1 coin) costs about 80 U.S. cents, most prices account for the difference plus the B.C. sales taxes are 12%. Gasoline in B.C. costs about US$5 per US gallon.
 

Henry

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I've skied at Whistler and Stevens pass for 40 years. Whistler in early winter 2020, before the virus was known, was much slower each day to open all the runs and lifts than before VR bought it. The only possible excuse was a late opening due to late snow, and after the snow came the staff they would have hired perhaps found jobs elsewhere--people gott'a eat. Stevens Pass had much better operations during the ownerships before VR.
 

dovski

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RCR...Fernie, Kicking Horse, Nakiska, Kimberley are all Epic partners. Red Mountain, Revelstoke, Big 3 at Banff are Ikon affiliates. While a Loonie (Canadian $1 coin) costs about 80 U.S. cents, most prices account for the difference plus the B.C. sales taxes are 12%. Gasoline in B.C. costs about US$5 per US gallon.
So there is a difference between a an Epic Partner and a Vail owned results, just like their is a difference between and Ikon affiliate and an Alterra owned resort. A great example is Ski Big 3, which is actually a marketing/sales company for vacations in the Banff/ Lake Louise area, all three ski resorts that do business through them are independently owned by three separate families. And yes these are Ikon affiliates, but they are not run by mega corps like Vail and they offer amazing value and customer service. The cost of staying in Banff is a fraction the cost of just about any major resort area in the US, which is why we go there every year. My 10 days in Banff this year with skiing will be less than what I pay for my 5 days in Alta/Snowbird as an example. The real savings you get in Canada is that $ for $ skiing and accommodation in ski areas is much more affordable ... and then yo also have the favorable exchange rate on top of that. So while gas may be more expensive, rental cars, hotels, restaurants and lift tickets are much cheaper. Now Whistler is the exception to that rule since the Vail acquisition. Whistler stands out as the most expensive place to ski in Canada and has really struggled with customer service in recent years IMHO. For those reasons we do not ski Whistler anymore even though we live in Seattle. Simply put we can take the same $$ we would have spent at Whistler and get much more skiing in at other resorts where they really do value their customers.
 

hespeler

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From everything I've heard and seen Vail DGAF about any of it's NE properties beyond what money they can extract and has severely degraded the experience at all of them. I used to go to Hunter for day trips but last season, AFAIK, they never opened the West side trails. Without those few trails I have pretty much zero interest in skiing there. Add in the typical Vail (lack of) customer service and I want to avoid it like the plague.
I skied the West side in early December last year. There was at least one early season powder day last year and the mountain opened up the entire West side. Not sure how long they kept it open but skiing on Annapurna I was surprised they opened it with that much underbrush poking through. It was still a lot of fun.
 

newboots

Learning to carve!
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I skied the West side in early December last year. There was at least one early season powder day last year and the mountain opened up the entire West side. Not sure how long they kept it open but skiing on Annapurna I was surprised they opened it with that much underbrush poking through. It was still a lot of fun.
Maybe that big December storm? But it all got rained away before Christmas, so it was just there for a couple of days. I skied up there the day of the storm, but I can't remember what was open. It was my first time there.
 

Cameron

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I had not really followed what was going on with Vail then yesterday they finally announced that Mad River Mountain, Boston Mills, and Brandywine in Ohio were opening. Perfect North and Snow Trails have been open for nearly a month because they made snow when weather permitted in November, something VR has refused to do. If that were not bad enough they also announced that they were significantly reducing the hours of operation to 3:00-9:00 PM on weekdays and 10:00AM -5:00PM on weekends and holidays. Paoli Peaks in Indiana and Alpine Valley in Ohio have yet to announce any opening information. Of course they are using the excuse of covid and staffing shortages for the reduced hours. To address complaints and requests for refunds they simply point to the refund policy which I read as go pound sand.
 

Roundturns

Getting off the lift
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3-9 Weekdays really blows! So much for ever wanting to take a weekday snow day.
I guess you can ski perfect cord from 3PM- 3:15 (lol).
Just you and a thousand kids now out of school.
 

Cameron

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3-9 Weekdays really blows! So much for ever wanting to take a weekday snow day.
I guess you can ski perfect cord from 3PM- 3:15 (lol).
Just you and a thousand kids now out of school.
I know a lot of people at Perfect North that ski mostly weekday mornings and I assume there used to be a lot of Mad River and others ski areas.
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
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Vail suffered a perfect storm this year. They dropped pass prices which is driving a huge increase in skier traffic. At the same time, the labor shortage is hitting from an operational standpoint.
 

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