What can an intermediate learn from Ted Ligety?

[Doug Briggs]

I wonder that an intermediate would gain anything other than a feeling of overwhelming deficiency.

While Ted's technique illustrates tipping, leg flexion and upper/lower body separation along with early movement of the COM down the hill, he is showing the culmination of years of skills application. An intermediate might be able to see and be inspired by the individual and combined skills shown by Ted, but they need more realistic examples of the progression than the ultimate outcome. Someone trying to mimic his turn initiation at the speed an intermediate typically travels would have a rude awakening.

That is why instructors attempt to demonstrate the next level skills a student should be aspiring to, not showing level 5s perfect arc to arc carving.

 

[LiquidFeet]

An intermediate might look at that first video and see the aft position of Ted at the end of his turns, his forward arm swing and pole plant with upper body rotation, and think those are good to mimic... which would not be good for said intermediate. Ted is having fun here, doing fun things. His form is not appropriate for learners trying to gain fundamental skills. Without his level of fundamentals, intermediates would lose control trying to do what he's doing. They might even damage an ACL.

 

[Mike King]

@LiquidFeet, I've just been through a 3-part training on the physics of skiing and it was eye-opening. One of the things that I have taken away from the session is that it is pretty much impossible to tell if someone is fore or aft from a single frame or picture. Fore/aft is relative to the acceleration of the skis, and you cannot determine anything about the acceleration of the skis from a single frame or photo.

So, to take the thread slightly off-course, there's some really interesting things about all of this that are going to probably inflame a debate that's often arisen on PugSki and Epic. What's the point of moving forward or aft on the skis? From a physics point of view, it is to keep the pressure under the center of the ski. John Fahey, the instructor who led the clinic, showed an amazing video of a roller blader dropping into a quarter pipe. In order to keep the pressure over his base of support, the CoM has to be perpendicular to the surface. So at the top of the quarter pipe, the blader stalls the feet until the body is nearly flat to the ground, then allows the feet to roll under the body.

So what's the point of moving forward on the ski? It is to keep up with the acceleration of the ski as it turns into the fall line. Similarly, as the ski starts to decelerate turning out of the fall line, the skier needs to move aft to keep the CoM over the center of the ski, or equivalently, the BoS.

Now, perhaps if we went back to the video to look at the stream of those frames, we might seen that Ted was actually aft of his BoS given the acceleration of his skis. That might be interesting to see.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Mike King I was not saying there is something wrong with Ted's skiing when I pointed out that he is aft in those two stills. Nor did I imply that his aftness happened in any way that is problematic. Some people always assume that it's meant as a criticism when that word is used; not me. Are you one of those people?

For intermediates wanting to mimic what Ted's doing, if they aim for being aft as he is, their aft might be quite different than his and it might be a problem for them. That was my point.

More of his weight is over the tails in those two images, and in others I could have selected, than over the shovels. I don't think you disagree about that, do you?

 

[Mike King]

It depends on whether the skis are decelerating and you can’t tell that from a still frame.

Think about it this way — what do you have to do to stay centered over your foot when standing on an accelerating or decelerating train? If you take a photo of you from the side on an accerelating train, it would look like you were falling forward even though you are balanced over your foot and conversely for a decelerating train.

 

[dbostedo]

I've just been through a 3-part training on the physics of skiing

Where? How?

 

[Mike King]

Where? How?

Part of our training for ski pros at Aspen.

 

[Bolder]

I wonder that an intermediate would gain anything other than a feeling of overwhelming deficiency.

While Ted's technique illustrates tipping, leg flexion and upper/lower body separation along with early movement of the COM down the hill, he is showing the culmination of years of skills application. An intermediate might be able to see and be inspired by the individual and combined skills shown by Ted, but they need more realistic examples of the progression than the ultimate outcome. Someone trying to mimic his turn initiation at the speed an intermediate typically travels would have a rude awakening.

That is why instructors attempt to demonstrate the next level skills a student should be aspiring to, not showing level 5s perfect arc to arc carving.

I am under no illusions that I could mimic Ted's skiing, nor does it give me a feeling of deficiency, overwhelming or not. I am sure you would agree that using a video of a professional skier to teach yourself how to ski would be like trying to learn English by reading "Ulysses."

 

[Doug Briggs]

I am under no illusions that I could mimic Ted's skiing, nor does it give me a feeling of deficiency, overwhelming or not. I am sure you would agree that using a video of a professional skier to teach yourself how to ski would be like trying to learn English by reading "Ulysses."

Quite so. An intermediate skier needs to learn the next steps in their progression. Ted's video can provide a long term goal but is not very useful in the actual learning process. As has also been noted, there are some counter-productive things Ted does that could confuse or impede an intermediate's progress, like how he brings the inside hand well aft of the hip at the end of the turn.

 

[François Pugh]

One thing watching Ted clearly shows is more tipping = more better turning. Of course that leaves a lot to figure out, but it gives you something to work on. How to get more tipping and better turns while maintaining good balance and form.

 

[Mike King]

One thing watching Ted clearly shows is more tipping = more better turning. Of course that leaves a lot to figure out, but it gives you something to work on. How to get more tipping and better turns while maintaining good balance and form.

More better turning? More tipping = more bend in the ski. Presuming you have everything else close to correct, that results in a tighter radius. Is that better? Depends on the intent. But you still need all of the fundamentals checked off to get a “better” turn.

I don’t think that watching GS skiing has much to teach an intermediate. I find freeskiing, most specifically short turns, has a lot more application for demonstrating concepts to intermediates. The speeds are too high in GS and the forces too great for much application to intermediate skiers to relate to.

 

[Chris V.]

An intermediate skier--and any but a few beyond that level--will have little to choose between Ligety and any other World Cup skier in selecting a model. What's going to be helpful is coming to understand the dramatic differences between expert racer movement patterns and typical intermediate patterns. It will be crucial not to get caught up in the extreme intensity of what World Cup racers do. The goal should to figure out how to dial it WAY down, but still make the moves.

 

[Bolder]

An intermediate skier--and any but a few beyond that level--will have little to choose between Ligety and any other World Cup skier in selecting a model. What's going to be helpful is coming to understand the dramatic differences between expert racer movement patterns and typical intermediate patterns. It will be crucial not to get caught up in the extreme intensity of what World Cup racers do. The goal should to figure out how to dial it WAY down, but still make the moves.

That's more what I'm aiming at. I know I need to work on separation and angulation -- especially when I see videos of myself -- so it's actually good for me to see extreme examples. I can get mesmerized watching an SL or GS racer's torso remain absolutely level and pointed down the fall line while their legs are extending, flexing etc....

(I'm not ashamed to admit -- because skiing is essentially a glorified version of sledding down a hill when you were a kid -- that I daydream about being a pro skier, just like when I'm out on a training ride I pretend I'm in the TdF grinding up the Galibier.

It's the "Be Like Mike" syndrome)

 

[AmyPJ]

I wonder that an intermediate would gain anything other than a feeling of overwhelming deficiency.

While Ted's technique illustrates tipping, leg flexion and upper/lower body separation along with early movement of the COM down the hill, he is showing the culmination of years of skills application. An intermediate might be able to see and be inspired by the individual and combined skills shown by Ted, but they need more realistic examples of the progression than the ultimate outcome. Someone trying to mimic his turn initiation at the speed an intermediate typically travels would have a rude awakening.

That is why instructors attempt to demonstrate the next level skills a student should be aspiring to, not showing level 5s perfect arc to arc carving.

Nailed it.

 

[geepers]

Kind of doubtful that the OP vid of Ligety would be very helpful to intermediates or even advanced. He's just playing. It's like trying to learn moguls by watching the aerial component.

On the whole I find watching the racing interesting but not necessarily all that instructive. They get quite out of shape trying to make the gates and beat the clock. Elsewhere some-one suggested I check a picture of a racer in normal stance to check against mine. Went looking for a side on shot of 'normal' - started with Hirscher. No joy. I'm sure there's one somewhere...

In terms of learning it may be better to pay attention to vids from the top instructors. JFB, JB, Lorenz, McGlashan, Foster, Lepine, etc. They aren't contorting to get through gates. They are skiing with correct techniques. They are often explaining what they are doing and why.