Why do so many powder skiing videos look like stem turns?

[2Old4Rails]

What does it mean to ski that line cleaner? Often people mean carving cleanly without smearing. Not a lot of speed control in carving which is why racers carve at 60 mph on relatively not that steep of stuff compared to some of these narrow shoots. So maybe you mean something else, and it could be arbitrary personal preference without any real advantage. The nice thing about POV is that it's super easy to get the footage. Rather than mince words you can put it up and say this is the better way of doing it. You'll still get an argument, but at least the argument will be further along

Cleaner here means don't make a K shape in order to get the downhill ski on edge so much. Feet under body more. Part of the reasoning is aesthetics, a big part of the reasoning I think is that quickness turn to turn will suffer when you need to be fast if you do that. Also I think that the steeper and nastier it gets, the more this technique is gonna shine through and be exponentially less pleasureful for you as a skier and less effective.

You don't have to carve 60M radius turns to have good technique... the ski just needs a bit of persuasion sometimes... some coaxing... some forward pressure to make a gorgeous short radius turn. Cheers. BTW, this video is not real deep powder skiing and I think my comments would not apply as much to deep powder skiing. More for steep, nasty conditions or less steep terrain. Maybe I can find you some POV video as you asked.

 

[Rod9301]

What are k turns?

 

[Rod9301]

that the steeper and nastier it gets, the more this technique is gonna shine through and be exponentially less pleasureful for you as a skier and less effective


Could you explain what you mean?

 

[2Old4Rails]

that the steeper and nastier it gets, the more this technique is gonna shine through and be exponentially less pleasureful for you as a skier and less effective


Could you explain what you mean?

Can try my best If you go for a quick double turn in a nasty spot, you gotta be on the money because a fall is more dangerous and whiffing is more likely to penalize you. A mogul-like technique is better there I think. You would not kick your heels out like that because you just can't turn the same way, not as fast and not as reliably or consistently. Think about rolling the balls of your knees around each other to make the turn, not kicking your heel out so much. That will give you your lead change, edge work, forward pressure all in one glorious little thought.

Another gnarly but fun spot where I think it makes a difference... Think about a deep powder day at a resort at 3pm, so it's almost semi-moguls everywhere because people have been getting it all day. If you want to bomb across that stuff you will be in the air 1/5 of the time getting knocked around all the way, semi-mogul skiing at super high speed almost. It is safer for your knees if you can keep your feet a bit more under you and a bit more parallel. You can absorb like moguls in a somewhat reasonable way, not with your knees getting thrashed at strange angles. If you can make large radius turns while bombing through the air in full whacko mode at the end of a powder day, it is quite the experience and not something to forget. You'll want your feet under you for that.

Rod309... it means making a K shape, really just the bottom half of the K with your legs. Thighs together, but at the knee it breaks into the bottom of a K. Kicking your heel out to the side to put the ski on edge. I promise I didn't make that up I learned it from a guy that had one of them credential things. Cheers.

 

[Sanity]

Can try my best If you go for a quick double turn in a nasty spot, you gotta be on the money because a fall is more dangerous and whiffing is more likely to penalize you. A mogul-like technique is better there I think. You would not kick your heels out like that because you just can't turn the same way, not as fast and not as reliably or consistently. Think about rolling the balls of your knees around each other to make the turn, not kicking your heel out so much. That will give you your lead change, edge work, forward pressure all in one glorious little thought.

Another gnarly but fun spot where I think it makes a difference... Think about a deep powder day at a resort at 3pm, so it's almost semi-moguls everywhere because people have been getting it all day. If you want to bomb across that stuff you will be in the air 1/5 of the time getting knocked around all the way, semi-mogul skiing at super high speed almost. It is safer for your knees if you can keep your feet a bit more under you and a bit more parallel. You can absorb like moguls in a somewhat reasonable way, not with your knees getting thrashed at strange angles. If you can make large radius turns while bombing through the air in full whacko mode at the end of a powder day, it is quite the experience and not something to forget. You'll want your feet under you for that.

Rod309... it means making a K shape, really just the bottom half of the K with your legs. Thighs together, but at the knee it breaks into the bottom of a K. Kicking your heel out to the side to put the ski on edge. I promise I didn't make that up I learned it from a guy that had one of them credential things. Cheers.

Ahhh.... cleaner mogul technique. Now you're speaking my language. Though, a quick double turn is just for show, I heard that from someone with mega mogul credentials.

 

[François Pugh]

Ahhh.... cleaner mogul technique. Now you're speaking my language. Though, a quick double turn is just for show, I heard that from someone with mega mogul credentials.

Working on points for style is what mega mogul credentials is all about at the top end of the scale.
At the lower end of the scale (where I'm at), cleaner (better) mogul technique is about staying healthy.

 

[Sanity]

Working on points for style is what mega mogul credentials is all about at the top end of the scale.
At the lower end of the scale (where I'm at), mogul cleaner (better) mogul technique is about staying healthy.

They never do that quick double turn in competition.

 

[François Pugh]

They never do that quick double turn in competition.

Would it slow them down?

 

[2Old4Rails]

They never do that quick double turn in competition.

Man-made moguls everywhere now so you are right about that.

 

[Sanity]

Would it slow them down?

I've never experienced much speed control from a few super quick turns (faster than normal direct line skiing turns on every bump), though maybe I'm just no good. But then I heard an Olympic mogul skier say that there isn't much speed control from them, it's mostly for show. As 2Old4Rails may be alluding to, in an irregular line it can help get back in sync in a fluid way though it certainly isn't necessary, and I wouldn't advise doing it in a nasty spot with a dangerous fall, because it's not much return vs. risk.

Everyone's idea of quick turns could be different, so point of reference, though I know Francois has seen this already, quick turns at 8:37 in the following video:

 

[DanoT]

Working on points for style is what mega mogul credentials is all about at the top end of the scale.
At the lower end of the scale (where I'm at), cleaner (better) mogul technique is about staying healthy.

I'm at the very bottom of the mogul scale, so to stay healthy I avoid moguls whenever possible.

Fortunately, my home mountain grooms 30-40 runs per night and once the Xmas holidays are over it's no longer skiers per acre, it becomes acres per skier, meaning it can take a while to grow moguls...and they have a few black diamond runs that they groom. Yeah, so I am a boomer groomer zoomer.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Everyone's idea of quick turns could be different, so point of reference, though I know Francois has seen this already, quick turns at 8:37 in the following video:

Well now that just looks like it was for show. Impressive.

 

[WadeHoliday]

happy winter!
I read a bit of this, didn't get time to work through all of it, nice functional skiing!
but I do see a bit of a downstem, searching for a bit of extra speed control/turn finish, probably due to the narrow chute, less space. That can be a functional choice sometimes, or it can also be form of turning power, using the downstem to create a rotary push off. you see that movement even at the upper end of skiing, sometimes on purpose, sometimes due to a habit. One of the beauties of our new wide pow skis is you can reach out for a platform to create that energy, even in pow, when it used to be almost impossible.
I understand the camera angle point, but I don't that that is all of this. He's obviously a great skier, and to me using the downstem as a functional choice.
snow today, ski season coming!
Cheers!
Wade

 

[James]

I think LF is right that a lot of what you are seeing is an artifact of the GoPro. In this video for example, I don't think Ted Ligety is doing a pizza.

Good one. Seems like the shots with the camera out in front of the body looking back don’t have the converging ski phenomena.

I’m dubious that the OP video is a stem. May or may not be a slight wedge entry which is natural if you are outside ski dominant focus. As others have pointed out, there’s more important issues in that chute than monitoring the absolute parallelism of one’s skis.

There’s also plenty of converging entries in racing. Sometimes intentional, sometimes stuff happens.

Thighs together, but at the knee it breaks into the bottom of a K. Kicking your heel out to the side to put the ski on edge. I promise I didn't make that up I learned it from a guy that had one of them credential things.

So an A-frame? I’ve never heard of K turns, and I’m not alone in that.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Good one. Seems like the shots with the camera out in front of the body looking back don’t have the converging ski phenomena.

I’m dubious that the OP video is a stem.

Yes!

It's interesting that people are willing to think Ted Ligety (whose skis are shown upthread from a POV camera) skis with an unintentional stem rather than that a POV camera tends to yield an unexpected distortion.

 

[mdf]

Yes!

It's interesting that people are willing to think Ted Ligety (whose skis are shown upthread from a POV camera) skis with an unintentional stem rather than that a POV camera tends to yield an unexpected distortion.

I agree it is lens distortion. I'm surprised it is that large.

 

[WadeHoliday]

yo, liquid feet and mdf,
I looked at it again, as you are both saying you are sure it's camera,
I understand the distortion idea, what I see is the actual movement of the downhll ski flaring out in a downstem, maybe I'm smoking crack, but I see that movement, not just the picture. you really think this is all camera? I have little experience with pov cameras, but I bet if we see that skier skiing that line from the front, we'd see that movement. as mentioned, no judgement, but it's there imo. Besides of the movement of displacing the downhill ski tail, the pole plant is up by the tip which could also cause the skier to loose the tail a bit, especially in that highly rockered fat ski.
I don't see it in the Ligety footage, it's a stable relationship to my eye, not increasing at turn finish.
anyway, just what I'm seeing, as someone who spent hundreds of days trying to eradicate my prefered downstem/platform move to pass my level 3 psia test.
cheers!
w

 

[mdf]

yo, liquid feet and mdf,
I looked at it again, as you are both saying you are sure it's camera,
I understand the distortion idea, what I see is the actual movement of the downhll ski flaring out in a downstem, maybe I'm smoking crack, but I see that movement, not just the picture. you really think this is all camera? I have little experience with pov cameras, but I bet if we see that skier skiing that line from the front, we'd see that movement. as mentioned, no judgement, but it's there imo. Besides of the movement of displacing the downhill ski tail, the pole plant is up by the tip which could also cause the skier to loose the tail a bit, especially in that highly rockered fat ski.
I don't see it in the Ligety footage, it's a stable relationship to my eye, not increasing at turn finish.
anyway, just what I'm seeing, as someone who spent hundreds of days trying to eradicate my prefered downstem/platform move to pass my level 3 psia test.
cheers!
w

I'll have to go look at the original video again. I didn't go back after the Ligety footage changed my mind. It could well be part camera and part skier; a downstem would not surprise me in that chute.

 

[Rod9301]

yo, liquid feet and mdf,
I looked at it again, as you are both saying you are sure it's camera,
I understand the distortion idea, what I see is the actual movement of the downhll ski flaring out in a downstem, maybe I'm smoking crack, but I see that movement, not just the picture. you really think this is all camera? I have little experience with pov cameras, but I bet if we see that skier skiing that line from the front, we'd see that movement. as mentioned, no judgement, but it's there imo. Besides of the movement of displacing the downhill ski tail, the pole plant is up by the tip which could also cause the skier to loose the tail a bit, especially in that highly rockered fat ski.
I don't see it in the Ligety footage, it's a stable relationship to my eye, not increasing at turn finish.
anyway, just what I'm seeing, as someone who spent hundreds of days trying to eradicate my prefered downstem/platform move to pass my level 3 psia test.
cheers!
w

Right about the pole plant, this will cause a low of edge grip

 

[Sanity]

yo, liquid feet and mdf,
I looked at it again, as you are both saying you are sure it's camera,
I understand the distortion idea, what I see is the actual movement of the downhll ski flaring out in a downstem, maybe I'm smoking crack, but I see that movement, not just the picture. you really think this is all camera? I have little experience with pov cameras, but I bet if we see that skier skiing that line from the front, we'd see that movement. as mentioned, no judgement, but it's there imo. Besides of the movement of displacing the downhill ski tail, the pole plant is up by the tip which could also cause the skier to loose the tail a bit, especially in that highly rockered fat ski.
I don't see it in the Ligety footage, it's a stable relationship to my eye, not increasing at turn finish.
anyway, just what I'm seeing, as someone who spent hundreds of days trying to eradicate my prefered downstem/platform move to pass my level 3 psia test.
cheers!
w

I have lots of experience with POV, and I agree with Wade.