Another sad story of a hit and run incident

[markojp]

I’m pretty sure some people died skiing in those decades. I’d be willing to bet money on it.

People die on the hill. Sadly it happens. I don't know that the numbers by percentage were any higher though than now.

 

[markojp]

But back to the groom. Groom has always created a less difficult skiing. And less difficult means less fails. Sure it also means faster and that adds danger but imo still outweighed by less overall fails. imo

I suspect we have more acerage that's avy controlled than groomed at the local hill.... thankfully. Low skill sets on fast, easy terrain is dangerous, so lowering the bar further will somehow be safer?

 

[Shawn]

I've had people start off from the side of the run just below me without looking up the run to see what's happening

I'd have to say that this is the most negligent thing people do on trails that are off the slopes. For example, there's a system of multiuse trails in Oklahoma City where I lived for a time. The trails are serious trails: they're wide, paved, and divided by painted lane markers. The trails are used by thousands of cyclists, runners, and inline skaters. I can't tell you how many times you'll see a family just walk onto the trail without looking if someone is rapidly coming up from behind at speed. They merge onto the trail without a care in the world. There's something about merging, in any context, that many people don't intuitively grasp. I don't know what is. Yet it's clear-as-day to me the dangers involved.

 

[Jacob]

People die on the hill. Sadly it happens. I don't know that the numbers by percentage were any higher though than now.

I think the point of @Goose ’s post was that other injuries would increase if you cut down on grooming, such as torn ligaments and broken bones. That would be as a result of the increased number of awkward and/or twisting falls.

 

[tch]

^^^ Don't get me started on the modern-day misconceptions around "merging" on the highway. How many times have I been minding my business in the travel lane when some #$%@ blithely drives out of an on-ramp into my front bumper.

 

[mdf]

I’m pretty sure some people died skiing in those decades. I’d be willing to bet money on it.

For some reason, the people who died never post on the internet.

 

[slowrider]

To merge with traffic means just that. The main flow of traffic has the ROW. I spend alot of time on the side of runs teaching and 90% of the riders are on the verge of out of control. Not because of speed but because they're not balanced. They have no concept of a buffer of safe space awareness. Just like when they drive a car.

 

[VickieH]

Harden.

First definition I found was "Hurry". But I can certainly imagine application for the other.

 

[skibum4ever]

The scenario that comes to mind: Skier A is doing short radius and med radius turns on a slope and is below/in-front-of skier B. Skier B is making long radius turns (or no turns) and is above/behind skier A. Skier A does a series of turns that puts him directly below skier B ("cutting him off"). Skier B does not avoid skier A and collides with him. Skier B has violated the skier code. Skier A has not violated the skier code.

This scenario was reality for my husband about a month ago. He was skiing a tight line on the side of an empty groomed intermediate slope. Somehow a snowboarder was above him cutting across the slope. He hit my husband quite hard. The entire situation was inexplicable.

He stopped and tried to protest that my husband got in his way. He got quiet real fast when I skied up and started yelling at him. He apologized and rode away. He didn't provide his name as he was a Mammoth employee and probably feared for his job.

Fortunately my husband's injuries were relatively minor, but his leg was so bruised that he was unable to ski again for 4 weeks. He likened the collision to being body checked in hockey.

I realized later that if I were hit like that my injuries would likely be season ending or worse.

 

[crgildart]

99.5% of the time, I'm with you ... but that's not always 100% true. I've had people start off from the side of the run just below me without looking up the run to see what's happening - and thereby closing a gap with another skier and leaving me precious little room ... haven't hit anyone yet, and hope I don't, but I'm darned if #1 supersedes #4 under those circumstances ...

I usually pass those folks on their tail side between them and the woods. One time one of them suddenly hopped a 180 and headed towards the woods right as I was up on them. Needless to say, I went farther off the trail right on the edge of the trees and passed them before we collided.. And, I know that was my fault too had it gone bad. Even though they didn't look, and did something extremely unpredictable I've got to give them enough space to avoid them no matter what crazy, unexpected move they pull

 

[Goose]

I think the point of @Goose ’s post was that other injuries would increase if you cut down on grooming, such as torn ligaments and broken bones. That would be as a result of the increased number of awkward and/or twisting falls.

Certainly, and also more collisions due to the loss of control.

 

[SBrown]

I think the point of @Goose ’s post was that other injuries would increase if you cut down on grooming, such as torn ligaments and broken bones. That would be as a result of the increased number of awkward and/or twisting falls.

I really doubt that would be the case. Besides, I personally would be ok with increasing ACL tears if it meant a reduction in deaths and TBIs and the like. I don't have statistics, and I don't even know if they exist, but I don't think there is a chance in hell that groomers are safer than ungroomed, when it comes to anything besides minor injuries.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Low skill sets on fast, easy terrain is dangerous

I don't think there is a chance in hell that groomers are safer than ungroomed, when it comes to anything besides minor injuries.

This is the truth! It’s the reason Deer Valley is such a lethal place. Lots of groomed terrain, some of it quite steep, and hordes of unskilled Master of the Universe types bombing into trees or each other. Just this week 5 were carted off to the ICU.

 

[Jacob]

I really doubt that would be the case. Besides, I personally would be ok with increasing ACL tears if it meant a reduction in deaths and TBIs and the like. I don't have statistics, and I don't even know if they exist, but I don't think there is a chance in hell that groomers are safer than ungroomed, when it comes to anything besides minor injuries.

I think the better solution would be a campaign for better education of skiers and boarders. As you can see in my other thread (who taught you to ski safely?), a lot of people are left to figure out mountain safety for themselves, and that’s just not a good way to go about things. It’s probably why there are so many incidents like these to begin with.

Also, I have a feeling that grooming less terrain could end up backfiring by funnelling all of the beginners and speed freaks together into even smaller sections of the mountains, leading to more collisions.

 

[Goose]

... thankfully. Low skill sets on fast, easy terrain is dangerous, so lowering the bar further will somehow be safer?

Imo yes, because as the difficulty increases so does the control failures. And i think that is the case even if speed is slower. Its still imo fast enough and there is more of the fails anyway.
I would ask the opposite of what you questioned.....you raise the bar and somehow thats safer?
Again (sort of as implied) , it comes down to trading one danger issue (speed) for another danger issue (amount of fails).
You might gain a positive from one thing but I feel its still outweighed but many more % of the other.
The groom imo is still far lessor of the two evils.

but I don't think there is a chance in hell that groomers are safer than ungroomed, when it comes to anything besides minor injuries.

Just what are minor injuries? Kind of subjective isnt it? .
But why would anyone think that folks on ungroomed are not sustaining as many or even more significant injuries via loss of control and or collision than they do on groomed?

As Ive implied earlier, I recall so often from years back and also modern times as the groom deteriorates the amount of fails increases dramatically. Its not even close imo.

We seem to be looking at one aspect only in the example of the % of folks who irresponsibly and recklessly fly down the smooth groomer with no regard for anyone. No doubt its an issue that exists and I agree.
But imo if you scale back the groom and raise the difficulty it still results in many more fails which in turn would result in more injuries. And so imo more dangerous.

Plus if you scale back the grooming then even more people will end up crowding what is groomed and that means more potential issues as well.

Looks like I'll agree to disagree with a couple of you. But its all good discussion.

 

[Ogg]

I would ask the opposite of what you questioned.....you raise the bar and somehow thats safer?

Yes.
Excessive grooming has led to a whole bunch of self proclaimed expert skiers who can "ski the black diamonds" but can't ski moguls.

 

[SBrown]

.... Just what are minor injuries? Kind of subjective isnt it? .
But why would anyone think that folks on ungroomed are not sustaining as many or even more significant injuries via loss of control and or collision than they do on groomed?

Um, not really subjective. Words have meanings. "Minor" injuries are those that don't threaten your life or livelihood.

"Anyone" would think this who has been around skiing for a while. I'm inching up on 50 yr on skis, with relatives and close friends who are patrollers, paramedics, nurses, etc. Shall we ask our resident patrollers?

 

[HardDaysNight]

Well @Goose the proof of the pudding can be found in the accident reports. Lost control and slid into tree? Invariably on a blue groomer. Fifty five year old dentist collides with woman? Intersection of two groomed trails. This case? Hit tree off of steep mogul run? Not so much.

 

[SBrown]

Ripcord – Redpoint Travel Protection

www.ripcordrescuetravelinsurance.com

Skier fatalities: Myths about who dies, and where, debunked

The average person who died on the slopes of U.S. ski resorts during the 2015-16 season was a 30-something experienced male skier wearing a helmet who hit a tree going too fast on an intermediate r…

www.denverpost.com

https://health.ucdavis.edu/children/download/sports_medicine/Skiing%20Injuries.pdf

From ^^: "Snow conditions affect injury patterns, as well. Hard pack snow generally yields high-speed and impact injuries. Powder and heavy snow is associated with more torsional or twisting injuries. Quick changes in snow conditions, such as hitting the line between groomed and ungroomed snow, may cause a fall that leads to an injury."

High speed is how you die. Torsional is how you end a season, but usually not a life.

 

[Brad J]

I was a Killington skier in the late 70's - mid 80's. Kton purchased 11 new groomers around 1983 and had 5 deaths before February. It made the mountain more accessible to more skiers and speed really increased. A buddy of mine wrote a letter to the director of skiing with the premiss of the letter being "Grooming equals deaths". It certainly was a observation not based on any kind of study but I believe it has a good amount of truth in the theory. I moved on to MRG after that for 10 years until knee injury put a stop to skiing rough terrain for awhile . I do ski groomers at a good clip always in control and had to slam on the breaks a few times this season here in the east as the limited terrain has put too many skiers with a huge range of abilities on the same trails , hopefully that changes soon.