Boot weight?

[Rod9301]

Thinking about some new touring boots this season. Wife just got some new ones now I want new ones, haha. Plus mine are about 10 years old and aren't the best fit.

Short list after trying a few on are the Dynafit Hoji Free and the Tecnica zero g pro tour. Tried some scarpa's and La sportiva on but they don't fit well.

Mostly just curious on others opinion about weight.

Thanks

I went from the zero g pro to the hoji free, 200g+and it didn't make any difference uphill, probably because the hoji had better range of motion.

The hoji is much stiffer and i think it skis better.

It's certainly easier to put on and take off

 

[Rod9301]

You found the range of motion for hiking/skinning to be much better on the Hoji Free?

Drammatically better.

 

[Rod9301]

And btw, people take about how the boot fits your foot.
I think that with modern materials, like grilamid, you can make ALMOST any boot fit.
Almost

 

[François Pugh]

Just for comparison.....
Technica Mach 1 MV 120 with Sidas footbeds and heaters and batteries 9.8 lbs (4445 grams) for two boots.

Komp 911 Dense Custom Foamed liners, tongue shims, power straps, original custom Kork foot beds and sidas Heaters 12. 2 lbs (5534 grams) for two boots.
.

Boris would be happy.

 

[Noodler]

For those interested, 2022 Tecnica Zero G boots:

 

[Primoz]

Weight and range of motion does matter, but for me personally it's still about skiing. This means, I don't have problem going up with slightly heavier boots, which walk worse then some other, but they ski more like race boots I'm used to. I have for those easy, more like cross country skiing sessions, some old Dynafit TLT boots, which are really light, and they feel like I would be going up with running shoes. But on way down it also feels like I would have my xc skiing boots on. So most of my touring is done in Atomic Hawx XTD 130. They walk ok, nothing to rave about, but I can make 6 or 7h tour with 2000+m of ascend without issues. But on way down, they feel almost like my Rossi race boots, and for me that matters more then 100 or 200g lighter boot. So on the end it all comes down to priorities. If you want to race uphill with those skimo guys get super light stuff, if you want ski fun on downhill section, get heavier and don't bother if you are slightly slower up.

I think that with modern materials, like grilamid, you can make ALMOST any boot fit.

I got this from race boots, where you get boot work on it, and it works on the end, and for me it works same way also for ski touring boots. Get boot that you want (performance wise), and then work on it to fit. Until now, it never failed me.

 

[Rod9301]

Weight and range of motion does matter, but for me personally it's still about skiing. This means, I don't have problem going up with slightly heavier boots, which walk worse then some other, but they ski more like race boots I'm used to. I have for those easy, more like cross country skiing sessions, some old Dynafit TLT boots, which are really light, and they feel like I would be going up with running shoes. But on way down it also feels like I would have my xc skiing boots on. So most of my touring is done in Atomic Hawx XTD 130. They walk ok, nothing to rave about, but I can make 6 or 7h tour with 2000+m of ascend without issues. But on way down, they feel almost like my Rossi race boots, and for me that matters more then 100 or 200g lighter boot. So on the end it all comes down to priorities. If you want to race uphill with those skimo guys get super light stuff, if you want ski fun on downhill section, get heavier and don't bother if you are slightly slower up.


I got this from race boots, where you get boot work on it, and it works on the end, and for me it works same way also for ski touring boots. Get boot that you want (performance wise), and then work on it to fit. Until now, it never failed me.

I have the dynafit hoji pro, walks really well and it skis great.

 

[Primoz]

Agree on walking part, but for skiing, at least for me it's simply way too soft to be considered as contender for my boot. But we are all different, and the only thing that matters is how it works for you.

 

[Slim]

I have been looking to see if I can find any studies about the effect of boot weight.
All the articles I have seen so far, refer to studies of walking and running on level ground. The mechanical model of skiing a moderately steep incline is completely different.

Has anyone found any?

 

[tomahawkins]

I have been looking to see if I can find any studies about the effect of boot weight.
All the articles I have seen so far, refer to studies of walking and running on level ground. The mechanical model of skiing a moderately steep incline is completely different.

Has anyone found any?

Consider what the body has to do to lift weight up a slope. Weight on the feet is loaded out on a long lever (your legs) and the actuators are at a tenuous mechanical disadvantage to rotate this lever. To compound the problem, the mechanical disadvantage remains near constant throughout the range of the step. Whereas weight on your back is lifted with your glutes using a joint system that has both a huge mechanical advantage and which the advantage actually increases with the step. This joint system works so well, we've replicated for all sorts of things: we find mechanical knees on injection modeling presses, mechanical car jacks, etc. Disclaimer: I am neither a physician nor mechanical engineer so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Try this experiment: Lay on your back with legs extended, place a toddler on your ankles and try to lift her off the ground. Now stand up, go into a mild squat, grab 5 toddlers in your arms and lift. 5-to-1 toddlers, easily.

 

[Pequenita]

Try this experiment: Lay on your back with legs extended, place a toddler on your ankles and try to lift her off the ground. Now stand up, go into a mild squat, grab 5 toddlers in your arms and lift. 5-to-1 toddlers, easily.

Lol. I hope I am never in a situation where I need to grab 5 toddlers simultaneously.

OP hasn't popped in here in a while, but to respond to his Q, boot weight, like much other weight of b/c gear, is often a personal preference. I'm a flyweight, and for most of my life, all gear in every sport was made for someone much heavier or taller than me. So for me, yes, light boots (and light skis and bindings) are a godsend. It puts me on a level playing field with touring partners without having to be absurdly in shape. My first AT boot was a ~2010 Black Diamond Shiva. Second/current boots are the Scott Celeste. Admittedly the first boot is a hybrid, which contributes to its weight. Even if it's psychological, having nearly 2kg less on my feet just due to boots is amazing.

 

[Slim]

Lol, My “toddlers*” weigh 88 and 135 lbs respectively, I don’t think I can lift them together in any set up, these days. (Also because they are 5’2” and 5’10”, so they I would have to lift them very high)

*10 and 13

 

[Slim]

@tomahawkins that’s a cool thought experiment!
It would be better on a include board, instead of lying on your back, as we do use other muscles to slide the foot forward, besides the hip flexors.
I found a study measuring efficacy in ski touring, they used roller skis on a inclined treadmill.
They also measured outside on real ski slopes.
They did not measure adding mass to the feet vs the back though.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Livio-Zerbini/publication/49702945_Energy_cost_and_efficiency_of_ski_mountaineering_A_laboratory_study/links/0912f50e6e0cf90de6000000/Energy-cost-and-efficiency-of-ski-mountaineering-A-laboratory-study.pdf?origin=publication_detail

 

[Slim]

@Pequenita , your point about relative weight of load vs weight of the person is actually why I really would like to find good information about this (besides my natural curiosity):

Despite trying to lighten up her set up, for our upcoming family ski touring trip, my youngest has 13.% of her body weight, as ‘dynamic weight’ (skis, skins, bindings, boots, poles), I have 9.7% and my wife and oldest daughter each have 11.6%.

Obviously, I try and adjust for this by carrying more of the group gear, and even some of her personal gear, but the question is ‘is all weight equal’? For backpacking, I simply adjust all our packs to be the same % of our body weight. But if ‘dynamic weight’ counts much more I would need a different formula.

 

[tomahawkins]

Blister just released a panel discussion on boot design from their Blister Summit. On the panel where the chief engineers from Lange, Technica, and Atomic. The last question covered was on the current lightweight trend in boot design:


It's interesting that all three emphasize the importances of weight for what it can bring to a boot: better performance, increased durability, more warmth. None said that weight was importance for the weight alone, which is refreshing because sometimes I hear that heavy boots or heavy bindings are better just because. I'd like to echo what @Philpug said earlier in the thread that lightweight boots are even advantageous for the ride down -- assuming that the performance, durability, and warmth objectives are met. In car suspension, unsprung mass is undesirable. Why should it be different for skiing?

 

[Rod9301]

Agree on walking part, but for skiing, at least for me it's simply way too soft to be considered as contender for my boot. But we are all different, and the only thing that matters is how it works for you.

The free 130? It's really stiff.

 

[Pequenita]

@Pequenita , your point about relative weight of load vs weight of the person is actually why I really would like to find good information about this (besides my natural curiosity):

Despite trying to lighten up her set up, for our upcoming family ski touring trip, my youngest has 13.% of her body weight, as ‘dynamic weight’ (skis, skins, bindings, boots, poles), I have 9.7% and my wife and oldest daughter each have 11.6%.

Obviously, I try and adjust for this by carrying more of the group gear, and even some of her personal gear, but the question is ‘is all weight equal’? For backpacking, I simply adjust all our packs to be the same % of our body weight. But if ‘dynamic weight’ counts much more I would need a different formula.

I'm curious, too, but the impact of dynamic weight vs. carrying weight may be an incremental difference, and other things like stride length play a bigger role. I find that when I am skinning behind other people, I tend to unconsciously match their stride whereas I don't sync my steps when backpacking or hiking with others -- I just walk!

 

[Noodler]

I'm curious, too, but the impact of dynamic weight vs. carrying weight may be an incremental difference, and other things like stride length play a bigger role. I find that when I am skinning behind other people, I tend to unconsciously match their stride whereas I don't sync my steps when backpacking or hiking with others -- I just walk!

I have noticed the same thing. Something about skinning uphill and maintaining the correct pace for the group.

 

[Noodler]

My final setup for the Fischer Ranger 130 came in at 1462g using the Palau liners. I really noticed the over 200g of weight savings per leg for my uphill lap this past Friday. I'm getting the weight in my setup to the point where I'm feeling like I could survive some longer tours. I've become familiar with some of the folks who also do the early morning laps at LL and I was almost able to keep up with one of the guys on a Scarpa/Voile/Dynafit setup that usually starts around the same time as I do.

 

[PowHog]

I went from the zero g pro to the hoji free, 200g+and it didn't make any difference uphill, probably because the hoji had better range of motion.

The hoji is much stiffer and i think it skis better.

It's certainly easier to put on and take off

Out of curiosity, which flex boot did you have on the G Zeros? I heard the Hojis fit larger feet better so this might be an issue for me.

My feet are really smallish (sub 100 width, low instep) and I experience a lot of trouble with boot fitting. Definitely want a full Vibram sole, no Gripwalk. The new and upcoming Fischer Transalp definitely caught my attention.