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stevo

Getting on the lift
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The world is my oyster
that's actually pretty cool, but I personally don't need video linked to it that would be really useful for teaching its true. I am interested in this only for monitoring myself, but honestly I think I would use it a couple times and put it back on a shelf after that so i can't really justify the cost.

But I would be interested in reviewing all of my turns, the pressure data and other data that is there, from start of the turn to end of the turn or every turn. I will be able to spot my patterns after looking at numerous of them...but I want to be able to dig deeper to actually to see exactly how and when I move my CoM around relative to my skis according to the measured pressure. I am mainly interested in this balance information. its possible some of the stuff about matching edge angles between skis could be interesting too, I usually have plenty of edge angle, however much is needed, I do not need to work on getting higher edge angles...so again..i would want to see exactly WHERE in the turn phases that I move each ski into edge angles, which first and how does it sequence through the turn phases. I am absolutely not interested in one aggregate value for the whole turn and especially for a series of turns.

I do like in this video above there is a couple times he showed an actual turn arc with colors that showed pressure build up under the inside and outside skis through the turn arc..which is somewhat useful, by comparing both skis we can get a pretty good idea about whether balance was over the outside ski at certain parts of the turns, etc.. but if we could also see combined with that the fore-aft pressure somehow throughout the entire turn arc... Basically figure out how well I am managing my balance over the skis in both dimensions....and also some of the other metrics...always I would want to see how I develop those various metrics over the duration of the turns...even if I have to personally inspect all 13 turns myself and look for patterns.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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I still don't understand how the CARV system could possibly understand how well I'm skiing. I say this because the pressure at the soles of my feet are pretty much opposite of what most skiers "think" you would expect. Let me clarify...

When I ski, and I want to be forward/stay forward, I'm dorsiflexing and pulling my feet back like crazy. There is less and less pressure on the balls of my feet, the more forward I am. There's tons of pressure on my heel. Won't CARV misinterpret this as me being in the backseat? While the opposite is actually true. If I'm plantar flexing (pushing on the balls of my feet by opening my ankle joint) then I'm probably in the back seat on my skis.

I still contend that for CARV to really understand the skiing that's happening, they need more sensors (especially up into the cuff of the boot). Then they really could make a definitive assessment of what's happening. The pressure present at the soles of our feet is simply insufficient to provide the data set needed.
 

stevo

Getting on the lift
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sensors built into the base of the ski would be the only true way...but yea I concur in general..there is more complexity involved, especially in more dynamic skiing. This is part of why i think its important to be able view that actual fore-aft pressure changes throughout the entire turn cycle...from start to finish. One aggregate value for the whole turn doesn't really tell us much unless you're dealing with someone who is chronically too far back all the time (which I know there are a lot of those types), then of course the aggragrate value for the turn would indicate they "generally" need to work on getting and staying forward...but really..during dynamic skiing..we need to be on the front of the ski at the start of the turn, center through the belly and perhaps slightly back even through the finish...but back does not mean "sitting back". and during completion foot pullback is extremely important... but seeing pressure back right there would not be an indicator of a bad thing for that part of the turn. It would be lowering the overall aggragate score for the turn though according to Carv inc.

during init its not clear to me that the pressure would read under your heel even if you are dorsiflexing like crazy and keeping your heel back, etc..once pressure under the ski is in front of the toepiece, I think the pressure meter in Carv would read it under your forefoot too, but I could be wrong about that. Note that pulling your feet back does not initially automatically put pressure in front, you are positioning your feet there during float...and after float, the pressure starts to develop for the new turn and if you got the CoM/BoS relationship right..then pressure should go to the front of the ski, which is the whole point. if its going to the front of the ski, I think you would feel it under your feet too. I hear what you're saying some of that pressure might go into the cuff though.

I think Carv are pioneers in this area and perhaps future versions will have more options like that...how about a detector you tape to your belly button to indicate where your hips are relative to your feet at all times? Or some things like that, Etc.. Like GolfTec. Carve is currently cool...but needs more for high level use and for me would be a short term curiosity only, I would need more detail to get much out of it.
 

Wade

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I still don't understand how the CARV system could possibly understand how well I'm skiing. I say this because the pressure at the soles of my feet are pretty much opposite of what most skiers "think" you would expect. Let me clarify...

When I ski, and I want to be forward/stay forward, I'm dorsiflexing and pulling my feet back like crazy. There is less and less pressure on the balls of my feet, the more forward I am. There's tons of pressure on my heel. Won't CARV misinterpret this as me being in the backseat? While the opposite is actually true. If I'm plantar flexing (pushing on the balls of my feet by opening my ankle joint) then I'm probably in the back seat on my skis.

I still contend that for CARV to really understand the skiing that's happening, they need more sensors (especially up into the cuff of the boot). Then they really could make a definitive assessment of what's happening. The pressure present at the soles of our feet is simply insufficient to provide the data set needed.
I think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding how it works. It seems as though you’re assuming that pressuring the cuff creates a certain pressure pattern feet that is biased towards the heels (which may or may not be correct) and that Carv’s model would misinterpret that as back seat skiing. That’s not how it works.

Carv have developed their algorithm by working with high level examiners and having their data scientists review turns with the examiners to correlate the data from the Carv insole to what the examiner is seeing on the screen. They’ve continued to refine their algorithm to better and better correlate data with specific movements and the model works very well to assess turns and call out the things that are good and the things that could be improved.

In your example, whether your foot is pressing the ball or the heel is kind of irrelevant. If their analysis of thousands of different skiers making thousands of turns had people applying the technique you’re describing and making turns that the examiners assessed as technically sound, they would have the readings from the pressure sensors and accelerometers for those turns, they would be able to understand the combination of data points that correlate to those turns, and they would incorporate it into their algorithm.

If the way you ski is completely unique, or if your idea of good groomer skiing is completely different that the national bodies of the examiners they use, then you have a point. If not, I think you’d likely find that Carv would pretty accurately analyze your skiing and provide data that may be useful to you if data in your skiing is something you would value. Or you could always just try it and return it if you didn’t like it.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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I think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding how it works. It seems as though you’re assuming that pressuring the cuff creates a certain pressure pattern feet that is biased towards the heels (which may or may not be correct) and that Carv’s model would misinterpret that as back seat skiing. That’s not how it works.

Carv have developed their algorithm by working with high level examiners and having their data scientists review turns with the examiners to correlate the data from the Carv insole to what the examiner is seeing on the screen. They’ve continued to refine their algorithm to better and better correlate data with specific movements and the model works very well to assess turns and call out the things that are good and the things that could be improved.

In your example, whether your foot is pressing the ball or the heel is kind of irrelevant. If their analysis of thousands of different skiers making thousands of turns had people applying the technique you’re describing and making turns that the examiners assessed as technically sound, they would have the readings from the pressure sensors and accelerometers for those turns, they would be able to understand the combination of data points that correlate to those turns, and they would incorporate it into their algorithm.

If the way you ski is completely unique, or if your idea of good groomer skiing is completely different that the national bodies of the examiners they use, then you have a point. If not, I think you’d likely find that Carv would pretty accurately analyze your skiing and provide data that may be useful to you if data in your skiing is something you would value. Or you could always just try it and return it if you didn’t like it.

Well a certain skier I know (that many here are familiar with, but has been banned from the forum) who skis at a very high level, messed around with CARV last season. CARV completely failed to understand true high level ski turns and assessed that type of skiing incorrectly (IMHO) and lower than less aggressive skiing. It gave him higher scores for turns on less steep terrain and rewarded much smoother, cruising type skiing. My assumption is that the vast majority of "examiners" really aren't skiing with the movements/inputs that we believe lead to the highest level of ski turns. They probably need to be more selective in whose data they should use as examples of high level skiing.

Get a few more sensors into the system to better understand at least where the lower leg is positioned within the boot. Better yet, add some at the knee, pelvis, and shoulders and then we're really talking about being able to recreate the skiing movements from the data.
 

textrovert

Reelin' in the years
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can you show us a screen shot of the monitor mode with a single metric plotted? can we only track one metric at a time, or can we track multiple metrics and just view one at a time later?

I had it on Monitor mode (Ski:IQ) today for a run. Here's what the data looks like at the end of the day.

I agree with @Mike King that this is not very useful for me after the fact as I cannot remember what I was doing each turn.

However, it was giving me real time feedback, calling out the numbers in my earphones at every turn. That is the real useful part of monitor mode.

Screenshot_20231123-132017~2.png


There are several other metrics that can be used in monitor mode other that Ski:IQ. Might be useful, depending on what you're looking for.

Currently available monitor mode metrics are:
Ski:IQ, Fore:aft Ratio, Edge Angle, Edge Similarity, Outside Ski Pressure, Early Edging.
 
Last edited:

stevo

Getting on the lift
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279
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The world is my oyster
Get a few more sensors into the system to better understand at least where the lower leg is positioned within the boot. Better yet, add some at the knee, pelvis, and shoulders and then we're really talking about being able to recreate the skiing movements from the data.

and to reiterate, nearly all of the various metrics change during the phases of a turn...a single aggregate value for any whole turn is almost meaningless
 

Wade

Out on the slopes
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Well a certain skier I know (that many here are familiar with, but has been banned from the forum) who skis at a very high level, messed around with CARV last season. CARV completely failed to understand true high level ski turns and assessed that type of skiing incorrectly (IMHO) and lower than less aggressive skiing. It gave him higher scores for turns on less steep terrain and rewarded much smoother, cruising type skiing. My assumption is that the vast majority of "examiners" really aren't skiing with the movements/inputs that we believe lead to the highest level of ski turns. They probably need to be more selective in whose data they should use as examples of high level skiing.

Get a few more sensors into the system to better understand at least where the lower leg is positioned within the boot. Better yet, add some at the knee, pelvis, and shoulders and then we're really talking about being able to recreate the skiing movements from the data.
There was an acknowledgement by the company ahead of this year’s revision to the algorithm that they could do a better job in considering slope angle and snow condition in Ski IQ scoring, and the algorithm has been refined for this season to address that.

The Ski IQ score is just a small part of the overall system though. As has been discussed throughout this thread, the app can provide turn by turn feedback on edge angle, fore aft balance, edge similarity, early edging, smoothness of building pressure etc. If you don’t think it could be helpful to understanding how those metrics change from turn to turn and change in relation to the inputs you make, then it’s probably not for you.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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sensors built into the base of the ski would be the only true way...but yea I concur in general..there is more complexity involved, especially in more dynamic skiing. This is part of why i think its important to be able view that actual fore-aft pressure changes throughout the entire turn cycle...from start to finish. One aggregate value for the whole turn doesn't really tell us much unless you're dealing with someone who is chronically too far back all the time (which I know there are a lot of those types), then of course the aggragrate value for the turn would indicate they "generally" need to work on getting and staying forward...but really..during dynamic skiing..we need to be on the front of the ski at the start of the turn, center through the belly and perhaps slightly back even through the finish...but back does not mean "sitting back". and during completion foot pullback is extremely important... but seeing pressure back right there would not be an indicator of a bad thing for that part of the turn. It would be lowering the overall aggragate score for the turn though according to Carv inc.

during init its not clear to me that the pressure would read under your heel even if you are dorsiflexing like crazy and keeping your heel back, etc..once pressure under the ski is in front of the toepiece, I think the pressure meter in Carv would read it under your forefoot too, but I could be wrong about that. Note that pulling your feet back does not initially automatically put pressure in front, you are positioning your feet there during float...and after float, the pressure starts to develop for the new turn and if you got the CoM/BoS relationship right..then pressure should go to the front of the ski, which is the whole point. if its going to the front of the ski, I think you would feel it under your feet too. I hear what you're saying some of that pressure might go into the cuff though.

I think Carv are pioneers in this area and perhaps future versions will have more options like that...how about a detector you tape to your belly button to indicate where your hips are relative to your feet at all times? Or some things like that, Etc.. Like GolfTec. Carve is currently cool...but needs more for high level use and for me would be a short term curiosity only, I would need more detail to get much out of it.
I
Well a certain skier I know (that many here are familiar with, but has been banned from the forum) who skis at a very high level, messed around with CARV last season. CARV completely failed to understand true high level ski turns and assessed that type of skiing incorrectly (IMHO) and lower than less aggressive skiing. It gave him higher scores for turns on less steep terrain and rewarded much smoother, cruising type skiing. My assumption is that the vast majority of "examiners" really aren't skiing with the movements/inputs that we believe lead to the highest level of ski turns. They probably need to be more selective in whose data they should use as examples of high level skiing.

Get a few more sensors into the system to better understand at least where the lower leg is positioned within the boot. Better yet, add some at the knee, pelvis, and shoulders and then we're really talking about being able to recreate the skiing movements from the data.
ive skied with Carv since very close to the launch of the product. I’ve introduced a lot of skiers to the product and many of them are at or near the top of the global leader board. many of them are current or former demo team members and Carv discriminates their performance from pretty much everyone else, particularLy me. Is it perfect? No. Are there better approaches to instrumentation? Yes, but they cost tens of thousands of dollars, require pressure plates on the ski, add incredible weight, and are basically lab gear. And they don’t have a database of millions of runs on which to train a neural network model.

to a certain extent, it doesn’t really matter if the pressure insole measures fore/aft balance if the pattern of pressure accelerometer and gyroscopic data as a whole generates patterns that yield relatively accurate data that identify metrics useful for assessing ski performance. And that’s my understanding of what Carv does.

the hardware itself isn’t the product. the product is the algorithm that’s built from millions of runs and trained on video analysis of high level skiers. Check out this https://getcarv.com/blog/video-mode-bringing-a-new-dimension-to-carv
 

Magikarp

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Has anyone who is objectively a good skiier (instructor/racer etc) tell me what scores they are getting in moguls and steeps?

My scores are consistent on green and blue groomers, but on the more varied terrain they drop below 100. The terrain obviously makes me more nervous, but I just want to know what score I should aim for in 3D snow? Or is that really a exercise in futility?

Oh and looks like Carv is coming out with a terrain adjustment feature.
 

Wade

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Has anyone who is objectively a good skiier (instructor/racer etc) tell me what scores they are getting in moguls and steeps?

My scores are consistent on green and blue groomers, but on the more varied terrain they drop below 100. The terrain obviously makes me more nervous, but I just want to know what score I should aim for in 3D snow? Or is that really a exercise in futility?

Oh and looks like Carv is coming out with a terrain adjustment feature.
You’re not going to get a useful Ski IQ number for moguls or any off piste skiing. It’s optimized for groomer skiing, and the terrain adjustment features that are coming seem like they’ll adjust for pitch and snow / groom quality on piste and factor that into a Ski IQ score, but it doesn’t sound like they’re trying to make Ski IQ viable as an off piste measurement at this point.

That said, individual metrics can be useful to look at off piste. For example, if you’re interested in how well you’re pressuring tge outside ski in short mogul turns, it’ll give you that information. It just isn’t going to give you a representative overall Ski IQ.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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Carv is working to improve their metrics for moguls and off piste terrain. I'm not sure if there will be a significant change to the algorithm's scoring of that terrain in this next release (Hintertux). They have found a way to calculate slope angle from the sensor data and that will be incorporated into the algorithm in this release. I personally do not pay much attention to the SkiIq for skiing that terrain, but the individual metrics, such as outside ski pressure, are useful to track and use.
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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Anybody been able to fit these in a boot with Hotronics or some other boot heater? I'm trying to install it, but I don't really have enough room on my Booster strap. I run the Booster inside in the front and the Hotronics battery, combined with my skinny legs there isn't much room left. The Carv battery will probably have to be on the inside, rear on the strap.

Not sure how long before a chairlift destroys it.
IMG_2929.jpg
 

sketchyAnalogies

Enginearing my limit
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United States
and to reiterate, nearly all of the various metrics change during the phases of a turn...a single aggregate value for any whole turn is almost meaningless
Screenshot_20231201-212026-359.png



There are screens I've found for pressure and engine shat show the composite scores as well as visualize how much you are edging/pressuring throughout the turn. Not turn by turn, but an average over a session.

An improvement I hope to see is the app itself.

There is a lot of good content, but there is not a good hub to watch videos. I resort to clicking through to a skill and several layers of menus. For how many menus and sub menus etc, it should have a tutorial. There are times I'll run into something near by chance, and have no clue where to begin looking just a few hours later.

Now, sure, it's mostly intuitive and usable, especially if you are going with the flow and just following what the app suggests, but if you want to find something specific it can be more involved.

Suggestions:
Video library
Once you hit a certain skiIQ replace "why it's important" with more involved written out tips. Better yet, have it hidden behind a clickable "why is this important?" At a certain point I just don't want to scroll through a long 2+ paragraph explanation about why outside pressure is important in order to see an interesting graph of my outside ski pressure metric over each day I've used carv.
 

Wannabeskibum

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Anybody been able to fit these in a boot with Hotronics or some other boot heater? I'm trying to install it, but I don't really have enough room on my Booster strap. I run the Booster inside in the front and the Hotronics battery, combined with my skinny legs there isn't much room left. The Carv battery will probably have to be on the inside, rear on the strap.

Not sure how long before a chairlift destroys it.
View attachment 216462
I have hotronics and Carv installed. I wear hotronics on outside of the power strap and the car on the front of the strap. It doesn’t interfere
 

mikes781

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A little kudos to CARV customer support. Noticed last year that my scores were tanking and chalked it up to rough conditions or just that my technique was going in the wrong direction. Didn’t really pay too much attention to it until after I had some lessons and week long trip to Colorado when the scores really didn’t seemed to be making sense. Fore/aft balance seemed off as did my left turns. Still thought my skiing might be the issue but this Fall I put on my boots and looked at the setup screen to see how the sensors were reacting to me putting pressure on them. Right one was acting squirrelly not giving much feedback and the left seemed to act up at times.

Tried them out this weekend in monitor modes on some easy slopes and the results weren’t making sense. Started a chat session with them today after their hours and got a response back in a few minutes. I was expecting it to take a few days. They had me run a few test in free ski mode so that they could look at how the sensors were responding. They came back about 30 minutes later and confirmed that I had a bad right insert and the left was going also. I’m part of the founders group so am well out of warranty, but was offered replacement inserts for a reasonable amount. Get to keep my founders status also and not have to pay the annual subscription fee. Very happy with how responsive they were. Now I can trust that when I get low scores it’s that I just suck at skiing. ogsmile
 

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