• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Rudi Riet

AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
SkiTalk Tester
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,477
Location
Washington, DC
The World Cup women are in Cortina for their annual speed week.

First training run was today. Vonn crushed it (won the run by almost a second over Goggia), with Wiles and McKennis in 3-4, albeit more than 2 seconds back.

Shiffrin was 13th, 3.26 seconds back.

Mancuso was 51st and dead last, just shy of 21 seconds off of Vonn and over 9 seconds off the pace of the next finisher.
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,157
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
wow, does Jules still really think she can make the team???!!! Only reason I can see for her being on the hill.... or maybe here sponsor deals require a minimum number of appearances...
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,498
Location
Slovenia, Europe
If IOC is seriously thinking about changing some rules to allow Bjoerndalen extra spot (he didn't qualify for Norwegian biathlon team for his no idea which, but considering he's my age that must be his probably 7th or 8th Olympics), then why not extending this new rule to every ex medal winner including Jules. Hey Ingemar how's your shape today, just in case you wanna try? :D
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
This is sad to watch, re: Mancuso. No other way to put it. Perhaps she's running the hill, with the hope of racing the SG on Sunday. Doubt if we'll see her do so, and less chance of the two DH's, IMO.

Maybe she is hanging on to the dream of qualifying for Korea. Sad.

This could be a big weekend for LV.
 

Cheizz

AKA Gigiski
Skier
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Posts
1,973
Location
The Netherlands
Almost as nice as when I was there 2 weeks ago...
 

Attachments

  • 20180105_094201.jpg
    20180105_094201.jpg
    136.3 KB · Views: 23
  • 20180105_094205.jpg
    20180105_094205.jpg
    147.3 KB · Views: 22
  • 20180105_094212.jpg
    20180105_094212.jpg
    139.4 KB · Views: 24
  • 20180105_112328.jpg
    20180105_112328.jpg
    139.1 KB · Views: 22

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
Vonn was very conservative at Bad Klein**. I think on this one she'll throw it down for the win unless there's bad weather.

Agree. She was not feeling it at B-K, hated the surface, the weather, and was not 100% in on her setup changes. Keep in mind, TWO DH's this weekend, plus the SG on Sunday. This has always been a big favorite of LV's, and when the weather and light is good, it plays right into her wheelhouse.

Her entire year is focused on the Olympics, but a win or two, or a super solid weekend will really lift her up. If this goes really well, she might skip Garmisch, rest up and tune up before Korea.

Sounds like her setup is very well dialed, as well. She brought the guy who's recently been working with her on it to Europe for these races.

This could be a good one for MS, as well. I'm thinking the WC overall will be locked up at the end of the weekend, for all intents and purposes.

Looking forward to it.
 
Last edited:

S.H.

USSA Coach
Skier
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
1,847
Location
New England --> CO
I’m thinking it’s a huge waste of coaching resources and it’s denying an up and coming racer from valuable World Cup experience.
does it? I'm not 100% on WCSL procedures here, but I think that if she officially retires, USST loses the quota spot that her (frozen) points provide to the federation. Or maybe because this season has already started, USST would retain it.

Additionally, this is DH training. USST has more spots open in DH training than it can realistically fill (i believe the US quota in training is 11 spots). Nine US women started in training in Cortina. Who exactly is the victim here? The US quota for race days is 9 (I think), so maybe there's an argument there, but ... I'm not sure there is anyone in the pipeline who is ready for WC DH. But I don't know.

Anyone with a better understanding of the ins and outs of WC start quotas want to weigh in?
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
I’m thinking it’s a huge waste of coaching resources and it’s denying an up and coming racer from valuable World Cup experience.

I don't disagree. If you read my posts on the topic of Julia Mancuso, going way back, you'll see that I have been quite critical of things. A year ago, I heard from close friends who saw her on the hill, trying to do something in the gym, and limping badly while in Chile that this thing was "over. Done." The word was that her surgery had not worked, and that any sort of rehab was an incredible long shot.

Having first seen her race at 12, and hearing rumblings of her hip issues by the time she was about 16-17, from people working with her, I was not surprised. However, I was amazed at the season long charade, where she traveled with the team {or at least at the team's expense} and was repeatedly on start lists all season long, only to be pulled, or even worse to forerun. At that point, she was eating up resources: time and money. And every time she was on a start list {not a training list}, somebody else was NOT. Agree on that. It was insane. But the start that we have based on her position on the WCSL does factor into this.

This season, I don't know how much she's using in terms of resources. I agree with @S.H. I would say very little if any coaching time. I am pretty sure that even her PT is not affiliated with the team. So it's some travel {when she's traveled}. Still, to what end? I have posted here that in the fall, a number of friends saw her when she was at Copper. And on off days in Vail. The words that came back to me were "wincing, and hobbled." Sure as hell did not sound like ready to attack a WC SG or DH. I think everybody knows that her days as a GS skier ended some time ago.

Being injured, with her points still frozen {which others from outside of the USA surely argue is a joke} does protect a start for the USA Pretty sure of that.

The quote for the women is eight. Plus, we have a NorAm spot. And that means they can ski 11 in a training run. So, I don't think her taking a training run hurts anybody, other than the circus and media swirl around it. I agree on that. It does get old for some of these ladies and some of the team. They're thinking "Why?" At what point is it over? Pretty obvious, not until Julia says it is. She could just remain "injured", not be there, and the start quotas would not change.

At some point when we want to start a lot of our younger skiers in WC events {some are just too young and inexperienced now} that quota becomes more important.

Now, two years ago I was pretty critical of Bode, and of the whole inability to admit that he was done, finished, retired. I'm not a stranger there. Bode is stubborn, but guess what, he was almost 40 and everything that he has in his life is the result of his ski and of somebody else funding it. He refuses to acknowledge, in private, that the USST has a thing to do with it. He thinks the team was lucky to have him, and that they organization was who benefited the most from it. So, we endured the whole Bomber saga, the make believe comeback, and on and on. He didn't even fake it by traveling, did he? But, his points were frozen as well.

So....we know that the USST has many, many issues. This is the low point. This is the crater. One of the issues is that however athlete contracts are currently worded, if you are "injured" {and that's a broad brush....the athlete essentially says I'm hurt} and you portray that you'll attempt top come back, you hold the cards. You hold your rostered spot on the team. I am almost certain that in Julia's case, her contracts with Stockli, Lekiand Lange all stipulate that she gets paid as long as she is on the team. Not as much as if she were able to win bonus money and skiing, but a lot more than if she retired mid-contract. So, yeah, that's a driver.

Bode has had this impression that he's somehow going to be the big factor that will make Bomber a successful premium ski. Maybe he will. He infuriated probably the most powerful guy on the sport, and he evidently felt that making it sound like he was going to comeback, and win on Bomber was key. SO keep me on the team. And by the way, keep my health and dental insurance in place fort my family, including the other two kids from the other relationships. That alone would fund a couple of athletes each of those two years.

Back to Julia. I think it's sad to see her try to hang on, try to dream of this Olympics, and just be beat up. I think somebody, be it her agent, her family............or Tiger Shaw and the USST should have been honest and firm and said "It's over. Done."

I can have a cynical side. I happen to have two childhood buddies who both were at one point Network sports presidents. I understand what a challenge it is to get any TV viewers of ski racing. I know enough about the USST to know how they perceive the importance of the Olympics, and how Julia has made herself the darling of the games in the past. She might be the most difficult woman to ever ski for the USST, but she has the smile and could turn on her game very few years. You can see that she was a big part of the plan for NBC. I assume that we'll still see her on camera. And since the USST is betting the farm on these Olympics generating some ski interest and making MS a household word throughout the country, ultimately generating more sponsor dollars, JM is yet another potential asset.

The whole thing is a mess. This is the legacy of Bill Marolt, and of following him up with perhaps a poor hire. The vast majority of the board are disengaged, the staff in many cases think it's "so cool" to work there. This, IMO, needs to be approached like a serious turnaround. I doubt that the board sees it that way. Maybe they'll see how bad/sad this is in Korea.

Would be great if they all went out on top.
 

Average Joe

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Posts
555
I don't disagree. If you read my posts on the topic of Julia Mancuso, going way back, you'll see that I have been quite critical of things. A year ago, I heard from close friends who saw her on the hill, trying to do something in the gym, and limping badly while in Chile that this thing was "over. Done." The word was that her surgery had not worked, and that any sort of rehab was an incredible long shot.

So....we know that the USST has many, many issues. This is the low point. This is the crater. One of the issues is that however athlete contracts are currently worded, if you are "injured" {and that's a broad brush....the athlete essentially says I'm hurt} and you portray that you'll attempt top come back, you hold the cards. You hold your rostered spot on the team. I am almost certain that in Julia's case, her contracts with Stockli, Lekiand Lange all stipulate that she gets paid as long as she is on the team. Not as much as if she were able to win bonus money and skiing, but a lot more than if she retired mid-contract. So, yeah, that's a driver.

The whole thing is a mess. This is the legacy of Bill Marolt, and of following him up with perhaps a poor hire. The vast majority of the board are disengaged, the staff in many cases think it's "so cool" to work there. This, IMO, needs to be approached like a serious turnaround. I doubt that the board sees it that way. Maybe they'll see how bad/sad this is in Korea.
Muleski thanks for your continued insight into the USST and World Cup, count me as one of the many who read and enjoy your posts.
On topic, thanks for the info on the DH slots, I realize that Julia is not actually "stealing" a spot, however as you say the cost of distraction / diversion at that level is measurable. When she is part of the road show as part of the team she's got a slot - and that costs money and time.
There is a separate thread going that highlights the cost of some athletes to join the USST - $30,000 I think. Yet here is a currently injured skier, unable to walk without difficulty, being held out as a potential Olympic athlete?
I realize that big name recognition is part of what drives the dollars to the USST, and as I'm not a big ticket donor nor an inside fundraiser, I don't want to cast stones. Perhaps Tiger feels that her star power income potential exceeds the cost of distractions?
If so, that's a pretty strange way to run the "Best in the World" ski team.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
I think the point with Julia is that she's not "using" a lot of resources right now, though folks tend to forget things like her health insurance and other benefits. I don't like it one bit, as I think her career is over. But there's a fine line, IMO, between letting them try to push on, and pushing them out. And I do NOT think we manage it well.
But it's not like if Julia were retired, her "slot" would be taken by another woman, and considerable resources would be freed up.

The fees to accept a nomination are in most cases less than they were a few years ago, if you can believe that. The B team is fully funded, for example. And yes, I think $30K is about the maximum. In that range. At one point it was close to $50K for some athletes. That's progress, I guess.

And yes, what "Best in the World" means is a confusing one. Creates a lot of confusion and conflict among many ski race fans and supporters. As does the discussion of how to improve results. No lack of opinion out there.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,987
Why don't they just use the star power of Julia somehow for the Olympics and free up a spot? Let's face it, Shiffrin, Vonn, and Mancuso are about the only ones known to the public. So use that in a way that works. Maybe she's a special consultant to NBC and the US team. Keep her in the public eye some and get someone else to replace her on the start list.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
She's not taking up a spot now, in terms of using any resources and driving up expenses. NOTHING like when she was racing.

And I really can't see any circumstance under which she makes this Olympic team. I think they name it on the 25th. Not happening.

Yes, I think she can have a strong media presence, if that's part of the game plan. She's very comfortable in front of a camera.
 

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Posts
2,129
Location
Not Ikon, UT
I think the point with Julia is that she's not "using" a lot of resources right now, though folks tend to forget things like her health insurance and other benefits. I don't like it one bit, as I think her career is over. But there's a fine line, IMO, between letting them try to push on, and pushing them out. And I do NOT think we manage it well.
But it's not like if Julia were retired, her "slot" would be taken by another woman, and considerable resources would be freed up.

The fees to accept a nomination are in most cases less than they were a few years ago, if you can believe that. The B team is fully funded, for example. And yes, I think $30K is about the maximum. In that range. At one point it was close to $50K for some athletes. That's progress, I guess.

And yes, what "Best in the World" means is a confusing one. Creates a lot of confusion and conflict among many ski race fans and supporters. As does the discussion of how to improve results. No lack of opinion out there.

Sometimes I read that a young up and comer (Possibly willing to pay the $30K) is kicked off the team, but someone who is CLEARLY uncompetitive is kept on the team at the expense of if nothing more than some travel and health insurance. This is just not right in my opinion. Trust me, I get the TV commercialization, but this is a financial net loss for the USST and also the loss of potentially someone growing into a top skier if given the chance.

I just continue to shake my head at how this is run. But I come from a sport that performance is the only criteria for starts. Put up or go home!
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
@Started at 53, keep in mind that she's considered injured. Rehabbing from an injury, surgery, etc.

Now, we could debate the logic in that, and whether there is a time when it's over. In other sports, it does work differently. This one is a bit different, in that you have issues like "freezing" your FIS points, and the fact that some injuries take a couple of years to come back from. But, she is clearly end of career, etc.

Lots of factors. Many. And she has had a darn good career, so I think they have been pretty lenient on a few things.

I'll be glad when the conflict and drama is gone. That may be in less than a week.
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
Skier
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,300
Location
Boston Suburbs
Looks to me like something similar happens in golf, they just don't have explicit rules for injury rehab:
(from here)
Requirements for a Tour Card
You can earn a PGA Tour Card by:
- being in the top 50 in a four-tournament play-off series to be played by the top 75 players from the Web.com Tour along with the players who finished 126 through 200 on the PGA Tour.
- winning three Web.com Tour tournaments in a season.
- being a former major champion.
- being a former multiple tournament winner.

-Earning enough FedEx Cup points as a non-PGA Tour member to rank in the top 125 if the golfer was a member.

If a non-elite tour golfer is out for a season, does he have to start over requalifying?
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
Well, Julia Mancuso is on the start list for today's DH. Bib 31. The USA has nine on the start list. This will be interesting.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top