DIY Molding of MIMIC liner

[PaulE]

Hello there,

First thread here, sorry if its in the wrong section.

So I bought the new Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130, upgrading from my Black Diamond Method 110. Feels good.
I bough the boots online figuring I'd mold it at home. I've done that before and it wasen't a hard thing to do. I found joy in customizing the boot myself and learning some bootfitting.
Upon figuring out the Mimic liner requiers some additional tools, I called the sports store to hear what they charge to heat it up and mold it. A minimum of 110 dollars they say.

I bought the shoes online to save money, dont have a ton of it, spending 110 dollars of this is a last option. I hope you guys can help me out with the following questions.

1. Does anyone know the temperature that should be inside the ovn?
2. This Mimic-sock that is placed on the outside of liner; is the function of it to compress the liner around the foot to create a good/better shaping of the foot in the liner? If yes, can I use "any" sock?
3. I see they are using a shoe spoon in the atomic video. Im guessing any long, wide shoe spoon will do the job, and that the fuction is to make things slide easier to make less "wrinkles" in the liner. Or?

Thats the questions I can think of that needs answering before Ill try and DIY it. Any other information and things to think about is gratefully appreciated.

Sorry if my Enligsh is a bit troubling to understand, Norwegian here.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[cem]

Good luck, get this wrong and you will spend more cash fixing it, whilst it looks simple it is designed to be done using the correct oven, and tools by someone who knows what they are doing

sorry I am not going to give you a step by step guide but it’s my profession that people don’t want to pay for any more

 

[graham418]

$110 to have a professional fit your boots doesn't sound too bad.

 

[ejj]

You could pay the $110 to get them sorted by a bootfitter that has the equipment, done the clinic, invested, etc. Seems like it's not a bad deal. How much did you save?

Or, you could just give it a go. Most ski gear is well designed and not too easy to muck up. Sometimes I feel like a design requirement for binding jigs is, "Could a stoned 20 year-old tech do this."

 

[oldfashoned]

Sometimes I feel like a design requirement for binding jigs is, "Could a stoned 20 year-old tech do this."

That guy mounted bindings on my skis some years ago. The BSL was different on each ski by 5mm. Only thing he had to pay attention to...

 

[onenerdykid]

Hi Paul,

A Mimic liner will require our process and tools to get the job done in order to prevent any fit or quality issues from arising. The fitting process itself is pretty straight forward, but rather specific in order to give you the best results. If our process isn't followed or the wrong tools are used, then it can lead to issues (which is true for basically any high-end liner customization process). Our oven will need to be used at the temperature & duration we specify- normal heat stacks or hot air blowers aren't good enough because they heat from the inside out and the real Mimic material is near the outside. We make toe caps, liner socks, and a shoe horn to make the liner installation and you stepping into the boot go as smoothly & as possible. Without them (or exact substitutes) there will be risks during the fitting process. So if shops don't have the right tools for the job, then it will most likely lead to a sub-par result and you'll be pretty bummed about that. We've done a lot of training for retailers that have brought Mimic in, so at least you'll know that the shops which have the tools will do it right and you'll have an awesome fitting boot when it's all said and done.

 

[PaulE]

Hey all,

Thanks for all the replies, and sorry for a late answer on my part. Been in the thinking box.

First a question about the price. Is 110 a fair price for just a liner heating? No shell work, no padding on pressure areas, no shell heating - just warming the liner. I ask because I've never paid for this, no clue what is considered a fair price. I've done the heating myself and been very happy with the result, and I'm blown away by the pricing seeing it has been so very simple to do on my own.

It seems the general recommendation is to not do this on one’s own. That because of the chance of failure, or not that I am not able to do a good enough job that results in a less desirable fit. Also, the lack of proper tools; and this is a win for the bootfitter. However, I’m not seeking perfection, and I’m pretty sure I can do a more then good enough job on my own.
Sure - worst case scenario I'll miserably fail, but I will learn. I appreciate that process and find lots of joy in doing things myself. What happened to the good old "fixing things yourself" -spirit?


@cem I’m sorry to hear people don’t want to pay for your profession anymore. I just simply want to do it on my own and in the process learn something new and save some "needed elswhere" money. All wins in my eyes. On the other hand, I can fail but still be a step closer to learning something new, but poorer - not any fun, “been there done that”, but these things happen in life. I get that.

As always, I’ll be grateful if some info will come to life. Feel free to send a PM. I am accepting the fact that I am fully taking my own risk here and that none of you whom only seeks to help can be blamed for any mistake I make.

Cheers,

Paul.

 

[onenerdykid]

Hey Paul, I know what it's like to enjoy the DIY approach. I love waxing my own skis and taking apart & rebuilding my mountain bikes. But I wouldn't do any of it unless I had the right training and the right tools for the job. When I need to replace a press-fit bottom bracket, I would never want to use a hammer and screw driver to remove it nor use a hammer to install it. It is for sure possible with a certain degree of success, but there are a lot of ways it can go sideways. Doing a Mimic liner at home without the right training or tools is very analogous here.

Molding a Mimic liner is not like molding an Intuition liner. We're not simply softening EVA foam with heat, we need to remold plastic elements, ensure they don't get folded/wrinkled and ensure lining materials don't get separated from one another during the fitting process. @cem knows this because he helped with the development of the liner and even he ruined a few (FYI- he's one of the most gifted boot fitters I have ever had the pleasure of working with). The process and tools we developed were 100% born out of solving the issues we encountered. When the specific process is followed and the tools are used, it is smooth sailing. But, if a step is missed or a tool is not used, then it can definitely lead to some irreparable damage to the liner and I would hate for that to happen to you.

 

[PaulE]

@onenerdykid Hey and thanks for your input.

I see your point; the proper tools make the job easier and most likely with a better result. I too enjoy working on my mountain bike, my car, skis, and buy the right tools for the job - most of the time. Some are DIY'able.
The first time I did a full service on the shock and fork I did feel way out of my league - but with good instructions from the manufacturer it went smoothly. These good instructions gave me a feeling of loyalty to the manufacturer as they were so helpful. It's sad that Atomic won’t sell the right tools to the end user - I'm sure you have your good reasons for it. However, I hope you guys will reconsider this with time and open for the end user to do this job himself. Make some DIY kits with a huge "do this on your own risk" disclaimer - make some money. As a DIY'er, this would make Atomic a lot more attractive. I think you see where I’m going with this, he he.

If such a talented boot fitter managed to ruin a few pairs, how can you ship the liner worldwide to "any level of boot fitter" out there? Sounds like recipe for disaster to me. -I don’t know what lever of experience the average boot fitter in your part of the world has. My impression for my corner of the world is that it can be a seller that has read an instruction manual on how to do it, and claims that they can do it. Which he probably can to a certain degree. However, a boot fitter can also be a person that has been boot fitting for years on years. Therefore, my feelings of a "recipe for disaster" – if a very experienced boot fitter can screw it up, how will it work out for the “instruction reading boot fitter”? And if a “instruction reading boot fitter” can do the job, why not the end user (with the right tools)?

I spoke with a boot fitter today (one with years of experience). He was very helpful and explained what I needed to know. He also offered to do it at what I think is a fair price, not only the liner but for a full fitting process, with the right tools. So, I’m going there tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how the Mimic molding process differs from other liner’s I’ve molded myself. I’ll be surprised if it seems there is any magic to it.

I’ll share my thoughts after I've had my boots fitted by a professional.

Thank you all for the replies, it’s been interesting to hear your thoughts!

Cheers,
Paul

 

[onenerdykid]

@onenerdykid If such a talented boot fitter managed to ruin a few pairs, how can you ship the liner worldwide to "any level of boot fitter" out there? Sounds like recipe for disaster to me. -I don’t know what lever of experience the average boot fitter in your part of the world has. My impression for my corner of the world is that it can be a seller that has read an instruction manual on how to do it, and claims that they can do it. Which he probably can to a certain degree. However, a boot fitter can also be a person that has been boot fitting for years on years. Therefore, my feelings of a "recipe for disaster" – if a very experienced boot fitter can screw it up, how will it work out for the “instruction reading boot fitter”? And if a “instruction reading boot fitter” can do the job, why not the end user (with the right tools)?

I spoke with a boot fitter today (one with years of experience). He was very helpful and explained what I needed to know. He also offered to do it at what I think is a fair price, not only the liner but for a full fitting process, with the right tools. So, I’m going there tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how the Mimic molding process differs from other liner’s I’ve molded myself. I’ll be surprised if it seems there is any magic to it.

A Mimic liner has a few different yet crucial steps to the fitting process. If a boot fitter or DIY'er applies the Intuition liner approach to the Mimic liner, it not only won't properly mold the liner, but it can lead to some quality problems. Mimic liners have their own process and tools in order to deliver the best fit and quality. And the only people who know this are Atomic dealers who have gone through the training process. It's not magic, it's just specific & unique. And ultimately, I'm super happy that you're going to someone who will do it right for you and get you the best results.

 

[Philpug]

If such a talented boot fitter managed to ruin a few pairs, how can you ship the liner worldwide to "any level of boot fitter" out there? Sounds like recipe for disaster to me. -I don’t know what lever of experience the average boot fitter in your part of the world has.

Cheers,
Paul

Show me a fitter than had not ruined a shell/liner or put someone in not the "perfect boot" and I will show you a fitter than has not been fitting for a long time.

 

[Uncle-A]

If anyone thinks buying Ski equipment on the internet is going away they are mistaken. Manufactures and ski shops are in business to make money so they want to keep some information proprietary. I bet that some of it will get out to the public and it will be on YouTube if it isn't there already. Also some common sense may help you with making educated guesses.
1. A boot manufacture can not afford to have a customer burn their feet so maybe 50C to 55C would be close to the max temperature they use to heat the liner.
2. Sometimes "Special Tools" are just another way to force ski shops into buying the manufactures higher priced tools.
3. Many people that came into shops that I worked only came in to pick my brain and not to spend their money, but that was back many years ago. Data mining is a common practice it goes on all the time.
4. When you consider that many of the ski shop employees are college students or even high school students that get on the job training, a reasonably skilled DIY person should be able to do the job after a fair amount of research.
5. If you apply the things you want in a ski boot fit, some of the steps of doing the job may be a matter of putting those wants into practice.

 

[PaulE]

Show me a fitter than had not ruined a shell/liner or put someone in not the "perfect boot" and I will show you a fitter than has not been fitting for a long time.

I agree. We're humans, we make mistakes. And as we learn from our mistakes, we make fewer mistakes. No doubt about that.

I see that I misunderstood @onenerdykid. I though he meant @cem had ruined a couple of new liners that is the same that went into the market. If I now understand it correctly it was a pair of liners still in development that got ruined, which led to the tools getting developed. (?) Sorry about that and the following words about "recipe for disaster".

-----

In the name of DIY, I'd like to bright the thread back to its purpose; gathering information so the willing DIY'er can get his best shot at doing this.

I hope that you @onenerdykid will help us fellow DIY'er out in the times to come. You seem like you really know your stuff.

-To those interested in DIY'ing this liner and to those who do it: Please share your experiences and knowlagde - both what works and what does not work. Failure is only failure if we don’t learn from it.

I have some information from a boot fitter about the purpose of the mimic sock, spoon and temperature setting they use to bake it. I am hesitant to share on the forum since I have not put it to the test. If anyone wants to know what I've learned, send a PM.

Here is what I've gathered so far:

-A video showing step by step on the molding of the Mimic liner from Atomic:
Cheers,

Paul

 

[Uncle-A]

I agree. We're humans, we make mistakes. And as we learn from our mistakes, we make fewer mistakes. No doubt about that.

I see that I misunderstood @onenerdykid. I though he meant @cem had ruined a couple of new liners that is the same that went into the market. If I now understand it correctly it was a pair of liners still in development that got ruined, which led to the tools getting developed. (?) Sorry about that and the following words about "recipe for disaster".

-----

In the name of DIY, I'd like to bright the thread back to its purpose; gathering information so the willing DIY'er can get his best shot at doing this.

I hope that you @onenerdykid will help us fellow DIY'er out in the times to come. You seem like you really know your stuff.

-To those interested in DIY'ing this liner and to those who do it: Please share your experiences and knowlagde - both what works and what does not work. Failure is only failure if we don’t learn from it.

I have some information from a boot fitter about the purpose of the mimic sock, spoon and temperature setting they use to bake it. I am hesitant to share on the forum since I have not put it to the test. If anyone wants to know what I've learned, send a PM.

Here is what I've gathered so far:

-A video showing step by step on the molding of the Mimic liner from Atomic:
Cheers,

Paul

Looks like you found a video to help you out. If you keep searching you may find more. Good luck.

 

[Jay S]

Nice video. Question for @onenerdykid. How do you custom fit the shell? Is that a separate process or does the cooked liner heat & customize the shell at the same time?

 

[onenerdykid]

Nice video. Question for @onenerdykid. How do you custom fit the shell? Is that a separate process or does the cooked liner heat & customize the shell at the same time?

Heating the liner just molds the liner. If the shell needs to be expanded, then either traditional spot stretching or our Memory Fit process done alongside the Mimic process will do the trick.

 

[KingGrump]

You seem like you really know your stuff.

That is an understatement even for 2020.

 

[cem]

@onenerdykid Hey and thanks for your input.



If such a talented boot fitter managed to ruin a few pairs, how can you ship the liner worldwide to "any level of boot fitter" out there? Sounds like recipe for disaster to me. -I don’t know what lever of experience the average boot fitter in your part of the world has. My impression for my corner of the world is that it can be a seller that has read an instruction manual on how to do it, and claims that they can do it. Which he probably can to a certain degree. However, a boot fitter can also be a person that has been boot fitting for years on years. Therefore, my feelings of a "recipe for disaster" – if a very experienced boot fitter can screw it up, how will it work out for the “instruction reading boot fitter”? And if a “instruction reading boot fitter” can do the job, why not the end user (with the right tools)?

i think it should be noted that the ones ruined were during the development of the liner, finding the correct heat, the correct insertion methods, pushing the liner in the way that is beyond what it is designed to be pushed, it is testing and development like this that gives the finished product, for example the process changed numerous times during development (at least 3 that i can think of) @onenerdykid can confirm how many times, and until the final process was set out liners creased, bent, kinked and weren't as good as they could be or we wanted them to be, this liner was a long time in the making and development means breaking things, (we don't give out duff liners to clients) . so when you have the tools and the process and the correct setting the whole thing is relatively simple. if you are having it done by a dealer and they screw up then its on them to fix it, doing it yourself and you screw up, only person who is going to pay (and a new liner is more than €110) is you

 

[Uncle-A]

i think it should be noted that the ones ruined were during the development of the liner, finding the correct heat, the correct insertion methods, pushing the liner in the way that is beyond what it is designed to be pushed, it is testing and development like this that gives the finished product, for example the process changed numerous times during development (at least 3 that i can think of) @onenerdykid can confirm how many times, and until the final process was set out liners creased, bent, kinked and weren't as good as they could be or we wanted them to be, this liner was a long time in the making and development means breaking things, (we don't give out duff liners to clients) . so when you have the tools and the process and the correct setting the whole thing is relatively simple. if you are having it done by a dealer and they screw up then its on them to fix it, doing it yourself and you screw up, only person who is going to pay (and a new liner is more than €110) is you

Is this liner a one and done fitting process, because some liners can be done more than once. If it is one and done it seems like a higher rate of risk.

 

[PaulE]

Hey all,

As said, I'd share my experience and what I observed with a boot fitter. I molded both shell and liner. I'll also share some of the answers I got from him upon talking about the spoon and sock.

To heat the shell an atomic/salomon memoryfit oven was used.
To heat the liner a machine looking much like this one was used. The machine had those "red arms" for the liner to slide onto and the lid:

Step 1:

Liner:
He inserted the liner on the "red arms" and closed the lid for the next processes:
-5 min warmup, then he added Mimic sock.
-10 min heating with Mimic sock.

Shell:
During the last 10min of heating the liner he also baked the shell.
-5 min in the ovn.

*Don’t quote me on the durations I mention. I’m pretty sure they are correct, but I have a bit of doubt in me. Would be nice if someone can confirm/disconfirm. If you disconfirm the heating durations, please mention the correct time to use*


Step 2:

When the shell and liner was warm, he inserted the liner into the shell without spoon, with Mimic sock still on. I asked if it was necessary with the spoons; he got them out and I used them for stepping into the boot. I inspected the spoons, nothing special about them as far as I could say. They struck me as fairly widel. It did help my foot slide better into the boot, and I suspect this is to avoid wrinkles. I recommend using it. Not hard to find a replacement spoon, using it will decrease the chances of failure.
As for the sock - it’s a huge "normal" sock. The sock was thin enough so I could see my hand through it. I'd say a thin->medium thickness. It wrapped firmly around the liner, keeping things in place.

With my feet in the boots he buckled them up in what I'd describe as medium pressure. No force used. Too much pull from the buckles and plastic will take damage. The sock is used to create some additional pressure, so the buckles don’t have to be so tight, he said.

Duration of standing in boots:
-5min of standing with a bend in the knee, no stick under the toe. I asked if we shouldn’t use a stick to life the toe up - he said the instructions are not to.
-5min: Cooldown with cooling packs in same stance.

No skiing for 3-4 hours after heating the shell. The plastic need time to settle I was informed.

"Before and after":
I had some pressure on my right foot ankle, that's now gone. I lost blood circulation in both my heels, no more. I got bruises on the top of my foot behind my toes (don’t know the English word for this place), we added padding there, and it is now fixed. So that sums up the "story" of how my new shiny Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 XTD fitted. I'm happy with the result, they shaped up nicely.

Cheers,
Paul