Don't Think, Meat. Just Throw.

[razie]

"Wider stance" in turns needs to be more tightly defined. Here's a photo of one of the greatest skiers ever, Marcel Hirscher. Is this a wide stance, or a narrow stance with the inside leg retracted for clearance? I think it is the latter. You'll see the same thing from all great skiers.
View attachment 153562

Yes, it is a narrow stance with 'vertical separation' - I think RLM nailed that one.

 

[razie]

View attachment 153621
Marcel Hirscher, inside ski's edge angle is not as high as outside ski's angle.
View attachment 153622
Paul Lorenz, same thing.

At this point in the turn, if either of these guys lifted their inside knee away from the snow in order to intentionally get it closer to the outside shoulder, as advised in another thread, that inside ski would lose even more of its edge angle. Just sayin'.

Thats what I was getting at in the other thread - they need to put the hip down for max angles, so the inside ski rides flatter, to allow that. It's because they are committed to the outside ski. The inside leg and ski just needs to get out of the way at that point.

 

[Mike B]

When I look at that picture I don't see the inside hip or knee as the mechanism for balance. Look a little lower.

How do you get up from the hill when you rest on your hip? If you are mainly using your poles you may not get it.

 

[mister moose]

Well radius is determined by edge angle - the more we tip the ski the more it can bend it.

Yes. But radius is not solely determined by edge angle. Applying more pressure bends the ski more. Next time you're on skis, stand by some support and tip the skis standing still to a large edge angle. How much does that bend the skis? Not much, there is no pressure on them normal to the surface of the ski. More pressure sooner delivers sharper turns. That's my story anyway.

... the longer I can hold off angulating at the top of the turn

You lost me a little here. Holding off angulating means less centripetal force, means less turning.

Here's a photo of my skis in a turn in the spring. (Zero rocker skis) Notice the skis are bent to a significant degree, the tracks behind me are arced and fairly even in radius, and my skis are bent more than the edge angle alone would indicate. That additional bend is from the increased pressure, the snow yields under pressure allowing the ski to bend further. If the snow is rock hard and has no yield, then I would agree with you that radius is mostly determined by edge angle. (and sidecut) ... I know I avoid rock hard skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Applying more pressure bends the ski more. Next time you're on skis, stand by some support and tip the skis standing still to a large edge angle. How much does that bend the skis? Not much, there is no pressure on them normal to the surface of the ski. More pressure sooner delivers sharper turns. That's my story anyway.
....

This.

But there's more.
The earlier one gets up on edge at the top of the turn, the more time skis have to get up on edge before the fall line.
Which dominates at first, shortening the new inside leg or lengthening the new outside leg, also impacts the pressure up there on the new outside ski.
Waist width impacts how early one can get to a high edge angle.
Travel speed at turn entry impacts how much pressure there will be on those bending skis at the top of the turn.
How much camber is left in the ski, how hard the snow is, how much the skier weighs, all impact how much the ski bends at the top of the turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Well radius is determined by edge angle - the more we tip the ski the more it can bend it. The way I understand it (and seemed to work for me last time on snow) was that the longer I can hold off angulating at the top of the turn the more the CoM moves inside and edge angle builds (primarily through inclination). ....

This too.

The extent one can incline without angulation at the top of the turn is impacted by all those other factors, and less angulation at first directs more pressure to bend the ski.
It's all interconnected.
No one getting high and early edge angles thinks of all these things at once while entering the top of the turn with high edge angles.
Training to get the high edge angles is when to think about them, one at a time.

 

[mister moose]

But there's more.

Waist width

Hey now. I've been trying to lay off the oreos the best I can.

 

[razie]

When I look at that picture I don't see the inside hip or knee as the mechanism for balance. Look a little lower.

How do you get up from the hill when you rest on your hip? If you are mainly using your poles you may not get it.

Hmm. I take it you're thinking he's bending the outside ski by pressuring the inside hand? Damn, why didn't I think to do that

 

[Mike B]

Hmm. I take it you're thinking he's bending the outside ski by pressuring the inside hand? Damn, why didn't I think to do that

Haha, good one.

No, it appears to me that he is starting to get on the new ski in that pic. I was referring to his inside ankle and lower leg. His outside leg cant get any longer and his inside leg cant get too much shorter. After apex the process has to reverse.

 

[razie]

Haha, good one.

No, it appears to me that he is starting to get on the new ski in that pic. I was referring to his inside ankle and lower leg. His outside leg cant get any longer and his inside leg cant get too much shorter. After apex the process has to reverse.

Hmm. Don't think so, but it is a possibility. Normally he'd be hard on the ski about to release, so it would make sense to start stepping onto the inside foot - but it depends how offset the next gate was... that was a fairly direct line though and the little spray there is consistent with the outside knee being at big angles rather than stepping on the inside. Hard to confirm the stepping without the video. It is a possibility, it does have the appearance of stepping on it, but the tibia is internally rotated because the hip is down - the cuff would not flex laterally that much. Those Atomic WC boots have a rotational cuff adjustment - no idea if he's using it or if it plays a role in that though.

The other thing is in SL it's fairly explosive, so it's not as easily seen that early as say in Ted's GS transitions.

 

[geepers]

Yes. But radius is not solely determined by edge angle. Applying more pressure bends the ski more. Next time you're on skis, stand by some support and tip the skis standing still to a large edge angle. How much does that bend the skis? Not much, there is no pressure on them normal to the surface of the ski. More pressure sooner delivers sharper turns. That's my story anyway.

If that was the case we wouldn't have needed shaped skis - straighties from the eighties would have been fine.

Shaped skis were invented so the tip and tail are supported and the sidecut allows clearance for the ski to bend until the middle of the ski touches the snow. And unless the snow is compressible (e.g. deep powder) the ski will then stop bending regardless of the pressure we put on it. It doesn't have to be rock hard concrete to not allow further bending.

Sure, there are special circumstances - such as: compressible snow - pow when deep enough but most snow isn't very compressible; middle of the ski in dip with tip/tail on high points; deliberately loading the ski fore/aft (like at the end and start of a dolphin turn) so the opposite end is in the air.

The lean-on support to edge ski test... a 17m radius ski tipped to 45 degree will only need to deform ~30mm in the middle and will give a radius of just over 11m. Won't need much weight to get it to bend that much and once the middle is down in the snow doubling your weight won't get it to bend more. Can get more bend by tipping further.

That in a nutshell is the whole concept of shaped ski carving.

BTW nice pole bend!

You lost me a little here. Holding off angulating means less centripetal force, means less turning.

This is what I'm trying to achieve. Lotta inclination early. Then angulate.

It's from this vid - most of the turns have that similar theme.


My turns will never look as good. Don't have the right ski suit. Which could be fixed. But there's also LOFT. Which is not so easily fixed.

less angulation at first directs more pressure to bend the ski.

With a dbl leg flex release there's very little pressure at all at the top of the turn. The CoM and skis are on diverging paths for a short time so the inclination develops as a consequence.

t's all interconnected.
No one getting high and early edge angles thinks of all these things at once while entering the top of the turn with high edge angles.
Training to get the high edge angles is when to think about them, one at a time.

It sure is a jigsaw puzzle. Piece by piece.

And ref-ing back to the hip rotation thread notice how square Lorenz's hips look throughout his turns.

 

[mulva28]

Are you really talking about the rate of edge change?

I'm talking about setting up the turn early with flex to release and tipping early to get edge change ASAP.

 

[Uncle-A]

I was just wondering if we should change the name of the thread? "Don't think meat, just throw" of course is the line from the movie "Bull Durham" it refers to don't over think something. As I read this thread it appears that we have fallen in to the depth of the abyss and are analyzing every motion of a turn. When we should just go out and have fun on the mountain.

 

[mister moose]

If that was the case we wouldn't have needed shaped skis - straighties from the eighties would have been fine.

Shaped skis were invented so the tip and tail are supported and the sidecut allows clearance for the ski to bend until the middle of the ski touches the snow. And unless the snow is compressible (e.g. deep powder) the ski will then stop bending regardless of the pressure we put on it. It doesn't have to be rock hard concrete to not allow further bending.

Sure, there are special circumstances - such as: compressible snow - pow when deep enough but most snow isn't very compressible; middle of the ski in dip with tip/tail on high points; deliberately loading the ski fore/aft (like at the end and start of a dolphin turn) so the opposite end is in the air.

The lean-on support to edge ski test... a 17m radius ski tipped to 45 degree will only need to deform ~30mm in the middle and will give a radius of just over 11m. Won't need much weight to get it to bend that much and once the middle is down in the snow doubling your weight won't get it to bend more. Can get more bend by tipping further.

That in a nutshell is the whole concept of shaped ski carving.

BTW nice pole bend!



This is what I'm trying to achieve. Lotta inclination early. Then angulate.

Yes, but....

On my frontside carvers there is just over 3/4 inch sidecut on each side. At 45° that height is only ~9/16". Even here in the east there are many many days when I can lay down more than a 3/4" "trench", so that's where I start to disagree on sidecut only determining ski bend. Hence the photo.

And yes, lotsa inclination and angulation going on in a nice turn. Lets also recognize that in the fall line, gravity is not additive to the radial G forces in the turn, but it is very much a part as you exit the fall line past, say, 30°. This means the amount of angulation needed during a turn of constant radius and speed is not constant. It's not just because of turn entry.

What I've been addressing is not only inclination early, but generating an early angle of convergence between your velocity vector and your ski direction. That creates big early pressure.

And yeah, the pole. There's a lot of hinky things going on in that photo, the photographer surprised me behind a big mogul, and what resulted was a whatever-works-to-avoid-hitting-him turn.

 

[Jamt]

Yes, but....

On my frontside carvers there is just over 3/4 inch sidecut on each side. At 45° that height is only ~9/16". Even here in the east there are many many days when I can lay down more than a 3/4" "trench", so that's where I start to disagree on sidecut only determining ski bend. Hence the photo.

And yes, lotsa inclination and angulation going on in a nice turn. Lets also recognize that in the fall line, gravity is not additive to the radial G forces in the turn, but it is very much a part as you exit the fall line past, say, 30°. This means the amount of angulation needed during a turn of constant radius and speed is not constant. It's not just because of turn entry.

What I've been addressing is not only inclination early, but generating an early angle of convergence between your velocity vector and your ski direction. That creates big early pressure.

And yeah, the pole. There's a lot of hinky things going on in that photo, the photographer surprised me behind a big mogul, and what resulted was a whatever-works-to-avoid-hitting-him turn.

Not personally to you, but in general I think there is a big misunderstanding in what early pressure means and how it affects the turn. If you have significant pressure before you get high edge angles you will never get high angles, because the turn forces will just push you up again, not allowing the CoM or hips close to the snow. By inclination first and then angulation you delay the pressure/force until you have high angulation. With proper timing of the movements this can also be early pressure (typically close to the fall line). The high edge still pictures you see of Marcel etc is a snapshot of something that happens very quickly. The upward force is typically greater than 2g and pushes him up very quickly.
The amount of horizontal turn force you produce is proportional to the vertical force. E.g. If you delay the entry so that you have this 2g upward force you can turn twice as much as if you set the turn too early and end up with a static turn phase (i.e. 1g upward force).

 

[geepers]

Yeah, keep in mind I'm just some guy in a ski forum. Get a lot wrong. But hopefully get some right.

Here's a couple of the info sources that lead me to this tip it to bend it conclusion. Some light listening/reading if you're in the mood.

Interview with Jurij Franko - Elan ski designer, physicist and one of fathers of shaped skis like the Elan SCX. The whole interview is interesting but the key bits are the 1st few minutes re who the heck he is and what he did at Elan. And a few minutes from 44:20 on this tipping to bend.

THE TRUTH BEHIND CARVING! article by Paul Lorenz. Specifically the paragraph just above the pics of bending the ski in the lounge.

Not found anything that contradicts what Franko says. Although there's a few ways to bend a ski otherwise (between bump tops, dolphins, in deep pow snow) none of them really apply to carving. Even dragging a ski sideway through heavy snow works better the more the ski is tipped.

On my frontside carvers there is just over 3/4 inch sidecut on each side. At 45° that height is only ~9/16".

That 9/16" doesn't quite make sense.

With the ski flat the tip, tail and narrowest part of the ski are on a circle of a certain radius. (With a 3/4" sidecut I'm guessing your ski must be around 17-18m if it's around 170cm length.) If the ski is tipped on edge and it is pressed perpendicular to the base the tip and tail won't really move and the narrow part of the ski does move out so the tip/narrow/tail will reside on a circle with a smaller radius. The more it is tipped the more it moves out and the smaller the radius.

So if the narrow part is 3/4" from line between tip n tail for a flat ski it can only move further as the ski tips. Can't get smaller.

Note the radius changes approximately with the cosine of the edge angle so 45 degrees gives a radius decrease of ~0.7. Cosine gets smaller faster as the angle increases so as the edge increases beyond 45 degrees the radius keeps decreasing at a faster rate. The difference between 65 degrees edge and 70 degree is huge - like a 25% tighter radius.

The amount the ski bends to decrease the radius isn't that large compared to the length of the ski.

And yes, lotsa inclination and angulation going on in a nice turn. Lets also recognize that in the fall line, gravity is not additive to the radial G forces in the turn, but it is very much a part as you exit the fall line past, say, 30°. This means the amount of angulation needed during a turn of constant radius and speed is not constant. It's not just because of turn entry.

Yep, we're in agreement with all this.

What I've been addressing is not only inclination early, but generating an early angle of convergence between your velocity vector and your ski direction. That creates big early pressure.

@Jamt answered that very well.

And yeah, the pole. There's a lot of hinky things going on in that photo, the photographer surprised me behind a big mogul, and what resulted was a whatever-works-to-avoid-hitting-him turn.

Yeah, I wondered if that was a smooth pitch. It sort of looked like you were turning with the berm of a bump into another bump. Even so I'd say there's a fair edge angle for those skis.

It can be good to ski with "surprising" friends. But not so good to sky dive with them.

Not personally to you, but in general I think there is a big misunderstanding in what early pressure means and how it affects the turn. If you have significant pressure before you get high edge angles you will never get high angles, because the turn forces will just push you up again, not allowing the CoM or hips close to the snow. By inclination first and then angulation you delay the pressure/force until you have high angluation edge angles.

This.

But think it should read "high edge angles", not "high angulation"... ?

 

[Chris V.]

To those who assert that added downward force (pressure) can bend skis more by deforming snow, I have a question. As skis start to bend, stiffness increases the resistance to further bending, and distributes the force along the ski from tip to tail. How do we know that snow deformation doesn't occur as much at tip and tail, as in the center?

Though perhaps loading up just the tips with a dolphin turn would have a different result, at least momentarily.

 

[whumber]

I think this is basically what you guys are looking for, from here.

 

[Chris V.]

^^^ Now that's getting interesting.

 

[Noodler]

Here is Jurij Franko's video of how a bent ski requires higher degrees of edge angle to bend it further.