EV or no EV?

[dovski]

First, I find the normal car-buying experience freaking stupid. It's one of the biggest purchases I'm going to make, ever, and you want to make me sit around for an hour to do paperwork that could've been sent ahead of time and signed online, mostly so you have the opportunity to upsell your extended warranty and push your in-house or kickback-inducing-third-party financing options?

I'd be perfectly happy if, when I next buy a car (and assuming I can buy a new one), I could configure what I wanted online and get my vehicle in a reasonable timeframe, without dicking around in a sales or financing office. Being able to test drive in person is extremely helpful, though; I don't know how to best provide that without brick and mortar dealerships (although a brick and mortar dealership without adequate inventory spread across models and options doesn't really help).

Second, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the post-purchase experience: in a traditional model, it varies tremendously by location, and in a lot of locations, you have limited choices within a reasonable driving distance for dealer service. If those dealerships don't provide a good service experience, you're kinda stuck, particularly for any in-warranty, recall, or TSB type services. And yes, you may be able to take that into account when buying a vehicle, but if you then move, you may find yourself stuck without any realistic options, and with limited recourse back to the manufacturer (there's only so much Ford is willing and able to do about service complaints, at least IME).

With the Tesla model, you should get consistent service experiences regardless of where you are. Whether those are good or bad is, in some ways, a different question, but they should at least be consistent and backed by the company you actually bought the car from.

Service is a tough one, and it varies by location. My local Tesla service center knows me and always goes the extra mile. The service manager knows me after years of coming in or them coming to me, and that makes a huge difference. My jeep dealership also knows me as I just bought a car from them. While they have also gone the extra mile to make things right, we have had issues with there work on our car and in some cases had to have the same thing done 3 times over before we finally got a refund for the work and took the car somewhere else. That plus the amount of time we have to invest taking our Jeep in for service is exponentially greater than with our Tesla.

With regard to Test drives, Tesla has show rooms where you can do that, and advisors who can walk you through the configuration and purchase process ... but the show rooms cannot sell you a car, which is how Tesla gets around all the dealership laws ... it is also what simplifies and streamlines the purchase process. Pro tip, if you want a discount on a brand new Tesla and no wait time, look for an inventory model in your local area, these are cars that were ordered, but buyer backed out on delivery. Not a lot of these but when they do come up you can save 5-10% on a brand new car, you just do not get to configure or customize it, you take it as is.

 

[Seldomski]

Tesla test drive process is way better than any other dealership. You can schedule a specific time and type of car and the car will definitely be there for you to drive it. Helps that the showroom cars are simply not for sale and that there are very few models to actually choose from. Also nice to have a 1 hr test drive.

Test drove S, Y, and 3 during COVID and they had the process down to where you never even went into the building. They could remotely unlock the car and you could drive off. They gave a phone number to call them though - if you got out and turned off the car, it became a brick. They'd have to remotely unlock it again after your call.

 

[Lauren]

So love Tesla, hate Tesla or simply indifferent, there is no denying that they have taken a very different approach to building, selling and servicing cars that is disrupting the auto industry in a big big way. Ultimately I think these changes are great for consumers and long over due.

I feel like this is the way everything is going...we're seeing direct-to-consumer models popping up in every industry these days. Nearly everything can be done online. You can order just about anything from your own couch. It's inevitable that the auto world will follow suit.

 

[neonorchid]

 

[S.H.]

I feel like this is the way everything is going...we're seeing direct-to-consumer models popping up in every industry these days. Nearly everything can be done online. You can order just about anything from your own couch. It's inevitable that the auto world will follow suit.

A lot of laws will need to be changed in the US for the DTC model to come to the auto industry for real. It would be nice. But there are hurdles.

Telsa has managed to get carve-outs in many states ... but other (larger) manufacturers have not.

Tesla US dealership disputes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why Can’t Car Manufacturers Direct Sell to Consumers?

A dentist’s office, a car dealership, an elevator that’s too crowded and hot. These are some of the worst places in the world. Why can’t car manufacturers sell directly to us? Why are we always forced to deal with shady car salespeople? Every car manufacturer has to play by certain rules when it...

motorhills.com

Why Can't Car Manufacturers Sell Directly to Consumers? | Vehicle Wisdom

Have you ever wondered why you have to go to a dealership to buy a car? Why not head directly to the manufacturer instead of going through a middleman? Car...

vehiclewisdom.com

 

[Tom K.]

With the Tesla model, you should get consistent service experiences regardless of where you are.

Why would you think this? Genuinely curious. I just spot checked the service ratings on several Tesla service centers or whatever they are called, and they appear to be nowhere near consistent in their performance.

 

[James]

Should be interesting to see what happens at the Toyota investor meeting. Lots of agitation by big investors to throw people off the board including former ceo Akido Toyoda.

Time to go electric: Toyota faces shareholder revolt and calls for board shakeup

Shareholders demand Toyota accelerates its switch to electric and discloses its lobbying efforts – and how it is tracking on climate.

thedriven.io

 

[tball]

Toyota makes some incredibly practical and efficient vehicles for the masses.

Prius Prime "the perfect appliance":



Corolla Hybrid AWD "the most sensible car in the world":



Because of their current constraints on battery availability, the more EVs Toyota makes, the fewer of those cars and other hybrids they can produce. I have no doubt they will ramp up their battery production over time, not soon enough for demand, but it will get fixed.

 

[cantunamunch]

^+ whatever Toyota hammer out, Subaru will get pretty quick.

SUBARU x TOYOTA Let's make ever-better cars together! | Subaru Corporation

As both rivals and partners, Subaru and Toyota have been striving together toward our shared aspirations for making ever-better cars by combining each other's strengths since 2005.To bring smiles to our customers and bring about a new mobility society, our journey continues.

www.subaru.co.jp

Should be interesting to see what happens at the Toyota investor meeting. Lots of agitation by big investors to throw people off the board including former ceo Akido Toyoda.

Yeh, they may be making the BMW mistake with that. As in: overinvest in early-gen tech that's hard to get out of, make extremely low profit margins per unit, wind up losing 3-4 class years of engineers as they jump ship for places that will actually put their expertise to use.

 

[James]

Because of their current constraints on battery availability, the more EVs Toyota makes, the fewer of those cars and other hybrids they can produce.

Has nothing to do with it. Just a bs spin for people to consume. Or, even worse, how bad is that?? Scary. They have been actively lobbying against the change that is happening globally, and risked being left behind.

Anyway, they have dumped Akio Toyoda as ceo, allowed him to save face and left him on the board, and did a 180 on ev’s. The stock went up like 50% after yesterdays ev announcement.

 

[tball]

Has nothing to do with it. Just a bs spin for people to consume. Or, even worse, how bad is that??

So, Toyota is not constrained by battery capacity? Source?

Just look at the extremely limited availability of their plugin vehicles despite enormous demand.

These couple of minutes I linked to make the case their battery capacity is constrained:

 

[sparty]

Why would you think this? Genuinely curious. I just spot checked the service ratings on several Tesla service centers or whatever they are called, and they appear to be nowhere near consistent in their performance.

Well, theory vs reality and all that, but it's one entity running all the service centers, right? As opposed to independently owned and operated dealers or franchisees?

In the latter situation, the brand has a lot less control than in the former. I realize that local management can still make a significant difference, but at the end of the day, the entity signing the paychecks has a lot more control over the employees' performance (IME).

 

[James]

So, Toyota is not constrained by battery capacity? Source?

Just look at the extremely limited availability of their plugin vehicles despite enormous demand.

These couple of minutes make thier case battery capacity is constrained:

The vid- come on, “There’s an argument Toyota makes…”
That’s called a justification of a policy.
Tesla and BYD would not exist if that was insurmountable. Tesla is building a lithium refining plant in Texas. BYD is like the 2nd largest battery maker in the world. GM and Ford are building battery plants. How about Toyota? Justifying their choice not to.

Toyota is way behind, as are all Japanese car companies actually. They’ve been obsessed by hydrogen. Wth does “constrained” mean? They’ve refused to develop, that’s their constraint. They’ve actively tried to stop California regulations, only dropping it last summer,. Tried to stop US regs, and tried to prevent Australia from transitioning to ev’s. Instead, they could’ve been solving their so called “constraints”.
Constraints = have not built battery plants, secured materials, developed ev platforms.

Source? Everywhere. This is not a fringe opinion, as the stock market just showed with the sudden stock rise after the ev strategy announced yesterday.

It doesn’t matter what we think about what’s practical right now or next year, it’s about 5-10 years from now. You can’t just develop vehicle platforms, software platforms, battery technology, and build factories with no lead time. It’s even worse if the company has no commitment, as the best in the company don’t go to those projects.
ICE vehicles are what’s going to pay for it in the short term.


But here, last year’s global summary. (Btw, this is the company that discovered the VW diesel shenanigans)

ZEV - zero emission vehicle
ZEVe - electric

The Global Automaker Rating 2022: Who is leading the transition to electric vehicles? - International Council on Clean Transportation

Evaluates how the world's top 20 light-duty vehicle manufacturers stack up in the transition to electric vehicles by rating them on 10 custom-built metrics that reflect their actions and plans.

theicct.org

Full report with methodology-

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Global-Automaker-Rating-2022_final.pdf

 

[locknload]

The vid- come on, “There’s an argument Toyota makes…”
That’s called a justification of a policy.
Tesla and BYD would not exist if that was insurmountable. Tesla is building a lithium refining plant in Texas. BYD is like the 2nd largest battery maker in the world. GM and Ford are building battery plants. How about Toyota? Justifying their choice not to.

Toyota is way behind, as are all Japanese car companies actually. They’ve been obsessed by hydrogen. Wth does “constrained” mean? They’ve refused to develop, that’s their constraint. They’ve actively tried to stop California regulations, only dropping it last summer,. Tried to stop US regs, and tried to prevent Australia from transitioning to ev’s. Instead, they could’ve been solving their so called “constraints”.
Constraints = have not built battery plants, secured materials, developed ev platforms.

Source? Everywhere. This is not a fringe opinion, as the stock market just showed with the sudden stock rise after the ev strategy announced yesterday.

It doesn’t matter what we think about what’s practical right now or next year, it’s about 5-10 years from now. You can’t just develop vehicle platforms, software platforms, battery technology, and build factories with no lead time. It’s even worse if the company has no commitment, as the best in the company don’t go to those projects.
ICE vehicles are what’s going to pay for it in the short term.


But here, last year’s global summary. (Btw, this is the company that discovered the VW diesel shenanigans)

ZEV - zero emission vehicle
ZEVe - electric
View attachment 205718

The Global Automaker Rating 2022: Who is leading the transition to electric vehicles? - International Council on Clean Transportation

Evaluates how the world's top 20 light-duty vehicle manufacturers stack up in the transition to electric vehicles by rating them on 10 custom-built metrics that reflect their actions and plans.

theicct.org

Full report with methodology-

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Global-Automaker-Rating-2022_final.pdf

Fascinating chart. Thanks.

 

[pete]

How reliable are public EV charging stations? Report shows many EV drivers have issues

J.D. Power found 20.8% of EV drivers experienced charging failures or equipment malfunctions at public charging stations.

www.usatoday.com

growing pains ...

 

[pete]

Toyota shares hit 16-month high as shareholders endorse board, new EV strategy

Toyota shareholders voted to retain Akio Toyoda as chairman as Japan Inc comes under increasing pressure to engage shareholders to boost profitability.

www.cnbc.com

Toyota board,

WSJ

Toyota Shareholders Re-Elect Akio Toyoda to Board, Rejecting Activist Push

Some investor groups in the U.S. and Europe sought Toyoda’s ouster over his stance on electric vehicles.

www.wsj.com

 

[dovski]

The vid- come on, “There’s an argument Toyota makes…”
That’s called a justification of a policy.

Toyota is way behind, as are all Japanese car companies actually. They’ve been obsessed by hydrogen. Wth does “constrained” mean? They’ve refused to develop, that’s their constraint. They’ve actively tried to stop California regulations, only dropping it last summer, US regs, and tried to prevent Australia from transitioning to ev’s. Instead, they could’ve been solving their so called “constraints”.
Constraints = have not built battery plants, secured materials, developed ev platforms.

Source? Everywhere. This is not a fringe opinion, as the stock market just showed with the sudden stock rise after the ev strategy announced yesterday.

It doesn’t matter what we think about what’s practical right now or next year, it’s about 5-10 years from now. You can’t just develop vehicle platforms, software platforms, battery technology, and build factories with no lead time. It’s even worse if the company has no commitment, as the best in the company don’t go to those projects.
ICE vehicles are what’s going to pay for it in the short term.


But here, last year’s global summary. (Btw, this is the company that discovered the VW diesel shenanigans)

ZEV - zero emission vehicle
ZEVe - electric
View attachment 205718

The Global Automaker Rating 2022: Who is leading the transition to electric vehicles? - International Council on Clean Transportation

Evaluates how the world's top 20 light-duty vehicle manufacturers stack up in the transition to electric vehicles by rating them on 10 custom-built metrics that reflect their actions and plans.

theicct.org

Full report with methodology-

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Global-Automaker-Rating-2022_final.pdf

The vid- come on, “There’s an argument Toyota makes…”
That’s called a justification of a policy.

Toyota is way behind, as are all Japanese car companies actually. They’ve been obsessed by hydrogen. Wth does “constrained” mean? They’ve refused to develop, that’s their constraint. They’ve actively tried to stop California regulations, only dropping it last summer, US regs, and tried to prevent Australia from transitioning to ev’s. Instead, they could’ve been solving their so called “constraints”.
Constraints = have not built battery plants, secured materials, developed ev platforms.

Source? Everywhere. This is not a fringe opinion, as the stock market just showed with the sudden stock rise after the ev strategy announced yesterday.

It doesn’t matter what we think about what’s practical right now or next year, it’s about 5-10 years from now. You can’t just develop vehicle platforms, software platforms, battery technology, and build factories with no lead time. It’s even worse if the company has no commitment, as the best in the company don’t go to those projects.
ICE vehicles are what’s going to pay for it in the short term.


But here, last year’s global summary. (Btw, this is the company that discovered the VW diesel shenanigans)

ZEV - zero emission vehicle
ZEVe - electric
View attachment 205718

The Global Automaker Rating 2022: Who is leading the transition to electric vehicles? - International Council on Clean Transportation

Evaluates how the world's top 20 light-duty vehicle manufacturers stack up in the transition to electric vehicles by rating them on 10 custom-built metrics that reflect their actions and plans.

theicct.org

Full report with methodology-

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Global-Automaker-Rating-2022_final.pdf

Toyota has basically been the flat earth society of EVs for years. Their former CEO was vocally opposed to them and as a result they are 5-10 years behind the industry with regard to EVs and have had to make some massive changes to stay relevant. Even with these changes they are still looking at not really having viable offerings in market until 2026. 3 years is a long time in the world of EVs and i companies like Tesla, Rivian, Ford and GM are going to continue to invest and innovate on their proven EV platforms. So good to see Toyota finally waking up and leaning, but they have a very big hill to climb. Also @tball we have posted lots of articles to this thread that document the situation with Toyota. They fought EV's tooth and nail and as a result did not invest or innovate. A big driver of this was that they make a lot of money off hybrids and the status quo, so unfortunately that has worked against them. The battery availability statement is BS as that has not slowed any other manufacturer, Toyota is just late to the game and playing catch-up.

 

[cantunamunch]

Now if only Toyota had the political will to re-enter Formula 1 and make McLaren a 'works' team starting in 2026 ...

 

[James]

I could see if Toyota had been developing hybrid trucks, even up to class 8. That would make sense for trucks that need to idle for long periods. But it doesn’t seem they’ve gone that far. I mean the Rav4 Hybrid Prime is a nice car, but it’s a place holder of sorts.

It’s not 2015, even 2019. Things have changed enormously in just the last two years. The best selling car in the world this year has been the Tesla Y. Not a Toyota.

Toyota can turn it around, if they are actually committed, which it seems they are now. But damn, they are really late. They should be coming out with their third generation by now. The Bz4 is pretty lame.

This is worth listening to. Darren Palmer, vice president Ford EV Global sales. About some of what went down when Ford got into ev’s. I think Ford needs more models asap actually, and are seemingly going to get swamped in models soon by GM.


“Team Edison” was the name for the original group in Ford to work on ev’s . They subsequently split off the ev division as Ford Model e. Ice is Ford Blue, Commercial is Ford Pro.

 

[wiread]

I think Toyota will catch up relatively quickly. While they lack in electric motor and battery development and those systems, they can always collaborate with someone or use/buy that tech when they find stuff they like. Unlike the newer to the scene companies, they do know fits and finishes and how to make cars people like to drive not just electric motor platforms. They also have the systems in place to produce a quality product and distribute.