Expert vs. Beginner skis

[GA49]

Hi All,

I recently changed from the Armada 82 (2022 versions) to Black Crow Divus (2022 also). They are both 82 underfoot. I had to get longer skis for the Divus (based on advice on this forum) and they seemed like a good fit.

When looking at Evo.com they classify the Armadas at Intermediate-Advanced and the Divus at Advanced-Expert.

TBH, I have no idea what the main differences are other than some parameters that are quoted on various websites which don't (or I'm too new to skiing to tell) make a difference insofar as I can feel:

Flex - don't know what the difference is as I don't ski at an advanced level? Thet feel very similar to me.

Width - same size

Rocker/camber profile - seems the same to me in terms of ease of turning...or not but I can turn both of them quickly.

Length - this is based on my weight and height with weight (currently) making me go slightly longer then the Armadas were, so is this splitting hairs since physical profile drives this decision, primarily?

So what gives? What exactly am I supposed to looking or feeling for while I ski to tell which skids are 'easier'?

I'm sure the problem is me, as this happens (I think) when people are not advanced or experienced at something: cooking, skiing, riding a bike, throwing darts at elves... Fill in the blank. My point is I'm not experienced enough to tell the difference IMO.

So what, while I'm skiing, should I be looking out for to tell which skis are easier or harder and what is the margin of difference to expect?

Thanks for any help on this.

~GA

 

[KingGrump]

The mind is a strange and wonderful thing. However, it can be easily influenced by marketing materials and specs.
I found the best way to differentiate between skis is the smile on your face at the end of the day.

 

[bitflogger]

Comparing models with a brand can be more telling. Having some metal vs not in layup seems to get some labeled as more intermediate, but don't fixate on that too much because some people like a lively no metal layup ski.

@GreenAthlete49 maybe you just need more time and do demo something very different if you find them similar. If you did not do a typo and "skids" is what you are doing work on carving skills and then the two skis might feel like a bigger change or difference.

 

[GA49]

Comparing models with a brand can be more telling. Having some metal vs not in layup seems to get some labeled as more intermediate, but don't fixate on that too much because some people like a lively no metal layup ski.

@GreenAthlete49 maybe you just need more time and do demo something very different if you find them similar. If you did not do a typo and "skids" is what you are doing work on carving skills and then the two skis might feel like a bigger change or difference.

Yeah possibly. I have the Black Crow Camox also which are different. They definitely sail over the bumps a little better and are easier to turn, just required a little more to put on edge. I've kept them as myash potato, soft snow skis (usually the beginning and end of NE year, but seems like most OF January now). So I know skis feel different when the parameters change significantly, but I was more. Wondering when they are so similar but rated got different levels.

 

[KingGrump]

Wondering when they are so similar but rated got different levels.

Marketing.

 

[GA49]

Marketing.

So basically F.O.S?

 

[KingGrump]

So basically F.O.S?

Yup.

There is a pics on one of the thread of the back of my mini-van. You can say I am pretty much BS-proof.

 

[martyg]

A more advanced ski will generally be a ski that will require a bit more energy to ski. If a performance ski, it will (generally) provide more feedback, and make you more aware of what you are doing. A coach / instructor will be able to guide you with what the feedback means, and what to do with it.

Ski length is so misunderstood. A longer ski will be faster due to releasing energy at the end of a carved turn. However, unless you are running gates on a ski that is close to an FIS spec ski, it will mean nothing. I often see skiers of short stature and questionable ability on long skis, because they bought into some shit that someone posted on social. And maybe to compensate for other short body parts. A shorter ski = more positive edge engagement. More positive edge engagement means that you get on that new outside edge quicker. You should aspeire to be on the edge well before your skis hit fall line.

When I teach I want a very complaint ski that I don't have to work hard on, that I can ski in the beginner area or on the backside with a hard charger. It is more an appliance to me. The Stockli Montero AX is my go-to.

My advise: Book a half day or instruction. If you do it mid-week, it will likley end up being a private, even if you sign up for a group lesson. That instructor will be your best Source of the Truth. Let them dictate what ski you shoulod be on to capture the sensations that you need to improve as a skier. Retail employees: not so much. They know what the reps tell them. The reps know what the PLMs tell them. If that retail employee was really all knowing they'd be making six-figures as a product developer, living out of a duffel and flying to Europe or Asia multiple times per year.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

Per everyone else, most of the evo.com ability level classification stuff is bogus. The grain of truth under 10 tons of crap is that some skis, by virtue of their shape and construction, do ask very specific things of their pilots. It is generally the case that skis which need to be used a certain way are unsuitable for developing skiers but these “very specific” skis are in fact pretty rare. Another general truth is that developing skiers can and do learn bad habits with skis they can’t use effectively (often because it’s the cool ski and too stiff) but if you’re capable of tuning out the marketing it’s hard for me to believe most would gravitate towards the too stiff skis if they’re demoing.

 

[AlexisLD]

@GreenAthlete49 Which Armada ski are you talking about?

 

[HardDaysNight]

So basically F.O.S?

For the most part yes. Don’t let on though or you’ll ruin the game!

 

[François Pugh]

There are a lot of differences between beginner and expert skis, most of which are due to the demands and willingness to pay a premium for skis that meet these demands. Many experts like to ski fast, very fast. Beginners not so much, with exceptions of course. Many experts (not all) want a high performing ski that can handle high speeds, beginners don't want to pay the cost of building such a ski. Many experts who ski on hard snow typically want to pull high-g turns on that snow using high edge angles and involving large forces and torques, and are willing to pay what it costs to deliver that performance. Beginners typically don't tip their skis up to high edge angles and typically won't need high forces for the turns they want to make. A beginner skier who does not ski fast and does not attempt hard turns won't notice the difference, and if they don't want to do those things, they probably don't want to pay for the construction and materials that would enable the ski to do it, so beginner skis are built to a price point.

Hi performance skis need torsional rigidity, lots of vibration damping and a stiff flex to be able to put the high loads (forces) required from the skier onto the snow where they can do what they do. That costs money. Expert skis also respond rapidly to skier input, and can cause beginners who don't yet have balance and skill to cause their skis to respond and deliver high forces which the beginner skiers can't overcome by brute force, resulting in many more falls than would occur had they been on benign beginner skis.

For many beginner skiers it's better that they enjoy their day, fall less, and never know what they are missing, and keep skiiing, rather than have a misserable day falling all the time and never go skiing again. The industry has figured this out. That's why we have beginner skis.

 

[GA49]

There are a lot of differences between beginner and expert skis, most of which are due to the demands and willingness to pay a premium for skis that meet these demands. Many experts like to ski fast, very fast. Beginners not so much, with exceptions of course. Many experts (not all) want a high performing ski that can handle high speeds, beginners don't want to pay the cost of building such a ski. Many experts who ski on hard snow typically want to pull high-g turns on that snow using high edge angles and involving large forces and torques, and are willing to pay what it costs to deliver that performance. Beginners typically don't tip their skis up to high edge angles and typically won't need high forces for the turns they want to make. A beginner skier who does not ski fast and does not attempt hard turns won't notice the difference, and if they don't want to do those things, they probably don't want to pay for the construction and materials that would enable the ski to do it, so beginner skis are built to a price point.

Hi performance skis need torsional rigidity, lots of vibration damping and a stiff flex to be able to put the high loads (forces) required from the skier onto the snow where they can do what they do. That costs money. Expert skis also respond rapidly to skier input, and can cause beginners who don't yet have balance and skill to cause their skis to respond and deliver high forces which the beginner skiers can't overcome by brute force, resulting in many more falls than would occur had they been on benign beginner skis.

For many beginner skiers it's better that they enjoy their day, fall less, and never know what they are missing, and keep skiiing, rather than have a misserable day falling all the time and never go skiing again. The industry has figured this out. That's why we have beginner skis.

Thanks for the information....so where would the Divus or Camox end up in that ranking? In your opinion.

 

[Andy Mink]

Generally a beginner ski will be softer in flex and torsion and be pretty forgiving. It won't have a high speed but it will hold your hand as you make mistakes. An advanced/expert ski generally will have a smaller sweet spot and will not be as forgiving. And lots of skis can offer performance that will help someone who is getting better while still have the performance and advanced/expert skier seeks. There are plenty of skiers who are still getting better who have fun on "expert" skis and some very accomplished skiers who enjoy an intermediate ski.

 

[François Pugh]

Thanks for the information....so where would the Divus or Camox end up in that ranking? In your opinion.

I have never skied either of those particular skis, so I cannot say. Anyone else with experience skied 'em?

Lacking further information, you have to trust to the manufacturer, some of whom (and many on-line reviews) have been known to exaggerate the capabilities of their intermediate skis.

 

[anders_nor]

expert skis = for heavier skiers, and or good skiers

 

[GA49]

Generally a beginner ski will be softer in flex and torsion and be pretty forgiving. It won't have a high speed but it will hold your hand as you make mistakes. An advanced/expert ski generally will have a smaller sweet spot and will not be as forgiving. And lots of skis can offer performance that will help someone who is getting better while still have the performance and advanced/expert skier seeks. There are plenty of skiers who are still getting better who have fun on "expert" skis and some very accomplished skiers who enjoy an intermediate ski.

I hear that term a lot, 'forgiving', and I'm sure it has a concrete meaning since it's used so much. Can someone point out a few concrete exams of this? I'm not trying to be dense about it, but I want to, understand it fully.

 

[Tytlynz64]

I hear that term a lot, 'forgiving', and I'm sure it has a concrete meaning since it's used so much. Can someone point out a few concrete exams of this? I'm not trying to be dense about it, but I want to, understand it fully.

Your Camox is roughly 97ish underfoot. Softer flex pattern. Easy to initiate turns at moderate speeds. Not quite beefy enough to charge through anything, takes some release of the throttle. Blizzard Bonafide. Roughly the same width, 2 1/2 sheets of metal, stiff, takes more effort to bend the ski to adjust turn shapes, likes to go fast, unfazed in variable conditions. The Bonafide is to me an expert ski. Takes a good pilot to get the most out of it and isn’t as fun when you are not pushing it to its limits. Best example I have based on your frame of reference.

A forgiving ski allows you to release the tail and adjust the turn shape the ski was designed to make. Some skis lock you into that shape and if you underestimated the line needed is harder to correct. A forgiving ski has less of the locked in feel When You Want or Need to correct your line. JMHO.

 

[zircon]

I hear that term a lot, 'forgiving', and I'm sure it has a concrete meaning since it's used so much. Can someone point out a few concrete exams of this? I'm not trying to be dense about it, but I want to, understand it fully.

Kind of want to add a qualifier on the word “forgiving” here. Often we gear nerds use it to mean “bendier” and less immediately reactive. Won’t spank you if you get back. HOWEVER I feel like there are a lot of beginner/lower intermediate skiers out there who would use “forgiving” to describe some serious business stiff skis. For the express reason that they don’t bend so they psychologically feel like a more stable less scary platform and the tails will support you if you sit on them.

That WILL hold back someone’s development though. Good to know who’s speaking when they describe their subjective experience.

 

[GA49]

Your Camox is roughly 97ish underfoot. Softer flex pattern. Easy to initiate turns at moderate speeds. Not quite beefy enough to charge through anything, takes some release of the throttle. Blizzard Bonafide. Roughly the same width, 2 1/2 sheets of metal, stiff, takes more effort to bend the ski to adjust turn shapes, likes to go fast, unfazed in variable conditions. The Bonafide is to me an expert ski. Takes a good pilot to get the most out of it and isn’t as fun when you are not pushing it to its limits. Best example I have based on your frame of reference.

A forgiving ski allows you to release the tail and adjust the turn shape the ski was designed to make. Some skis lock you into that shape and if you underestimated the line needed is harder to correct. A forgiving ski has less of the locked in feel When You Want or Need to correct your line. JMHO.

OK, I can get on board with that idea. The turn lock, I feel like can always be overcome by just forcing the opposite direction...maybe that's not the best way, or most elegant, but get's you out of a bind I guess? Does that sound right?

Between the Divus and The Declivity 82s I had, I do feel like the Divus are more stable at speed (not much speed, 25-30MPH) then the Declivity 82s felt to me. Also I don't feel as out of control on the Diamonds which maybe is a reflection of getting a little better. Overall stable is a good quantifier.

The flex (or lack of it), I guess at my size and weight don't mess me up as much or I am too new to be able to discern it.