Flexed Extension vs the other thing...

[markojp]

Break down motor function of your skiing. Do lots of drills to strength or develop new motor function to enhance your skiing.

Work on more on balance & agility off the snow within limits of your strength & flexibility - or you are asking for injury.

Not wanting to offend or kerfuffle, you might want to ask Pete more about himself... age, demographic, goals, etc.... before prescription.

 

[RoninSkier]

Thot he is in 80s per his post, no?

I am mid 60s lot of stuff I did even in my 50s I dont do now. I can demo them but its not what I use all the time.

 

[geepers]

As you state - don't compact all the time same as don't carve all the time

Ditto for up / down unweighting and its modern derivatives. Also for initiating our turns toppling/initial hook up or drift/spivot or check/jump.

Lets give ourselves our students tools that work for them for the hill conditions. And take particular care with the +50 crowd.

Luv the JAM crew. Lively, fun skiing. But it's the opposite of compact transitions.

(Sorry, have to click to watch.)

 

[François Pugh]

To flex transition like Hischer you have to get strong rebound, to get strong rebound you need to be skiing at speeds that most rec skiers do not ski at, cannot handle.

For racers yes, if their body type works best to use a low transition use it, coach it.

For rec skiers because they do not carry that much speed they end up squatting to 'look' like WC or elite club racers. Why I suggest trying the extra squatted Wedlen drill. At higher speeds the low transition can seem 'easier'.... but to hold a railed line in the Wedlen you deal with much higher G forces.

And I agree with the rest of your views. Equipment and hill grooming drove, still drives much of our sports technique development.

When Bode Miller came out with his K2 4 parbolics to dominate the Juniors in the mid 1990s he was not using a low squatted transition. Watch his early race, even his later race VDOs. He skies taller, and yes uses more inclination than most. But it works for him, his body.

Same for Ligety. He takes a much rounder longer but faster railed line than most. He almost never spivoted or check/jump turned. Again this is what worked for him, his body and perhaps to an extent what FIS rules allowed for skis during his reign.

Now pretty well every racer spivots, checks/jumps the the top of their turns over taking Ligety. Again watch the VDOs of these great athletes.

My point is not so much to not use low transitions but to try different techniques and find what works for our, for our students/athletes bodies.

And for us rec skiers to admire the greats but to have a reality check, to do what works for our for our & students/athletes bodies - be it developmental stage, age, coordination or fitness/strength.

It a fascinating discussion like all things skiing - we could go on til our heads explode - I am just suggest we stand back or slap ourselves once in awhile and take a reality check.

While I agree with your first two paragraphs, I think you're doing it wrong, maybe because you are skiing too slowly.

If you just relax to do the flex transition, you will be on the other side of the skis and into the new turn long before you hit the ground, or need to apply any force to keep from hitting the ground, provided you start out in a strong fast turn when you release. When the turn force is strong, you can easily handle it because most of it is handled by an almost straight outside leg. When you you release, no force needed. When you extend into the new turn, it's easy because you are just extending your leg so that you don't lift your skis off the snow.

Honestly, doing these turns is far easier than hitting the compression in a tuck after descending straight or almost straight for a minute, or for that matter, just holding the tuck for a few minutes (I first learned skiing by watching the Crazy Canucks "tuck it all the way").

 

[François Pugh]

Luv the JAM crew. Lively, fun skiing. But it's the opposite of compact transitions.

(Sorry, have to click to watch.)

That looks like a lovely exercise to build leg strength and endurance, more fun than squats in the weight room too!

 

[geepers]

That looks like a lovely exercise to build leg strength and endurance, more fun than squats in the weight room too!

Yeah, don't think that's quite right. MHO that skier unbalances out of the old turn - whether that's by extending the existing inside leg or from the skis coming back under - and the 1st part of the turn exit is not different from a compact transition. However he keeps the old outside leg quite long so the body just continues rising. But it's not that big an effort - he's not squatting weight at that point.

What is really interesting is the visible tipping of the feet as the skis flatten. On long legs. A Certain Individual made a vid a couple of days back saying that was it wasn't possible to extend and tip the feet. At 8:30. Maybe that's true - if you stiffen the legs / extend as the skis go flat. Otherwise... well, watch JAM guy!

Other than that thought CI's vid was a pretty good one re compact transitions.

 

[Average Joe]

Anyway, PSIA advocated for years extension transitions, so it's hard to change a mindset. I noticed that in France instructors teach extension transitions also. The only instructors that teach flex to release are younger ones, that have a racing background.

You nailed the main reason why PSIA struggles to keep up with current technique. A consensus mindset among the establishment will maintain the status quo. “Up and over” has worked, so why change?
To be fair, the status quo is alive and well in race coaching circles, just much less so. Results speak loud and clear, and the younger ones are quick to learn.

 

[Awalkspoiled]

This does not sync with my experience. I don't ski at Hirscher speeds, nor at Hirscher skill level. But I do use the flex transition. There are three ways I use it. I've taught one of these with success to lower intermediates and novices who don't want speed and who do not produce any rebound. They are looking for control of their line without their normal scary skidding.

1. Flex release
Flex the new inside leg. Do this with the intention of taking weight off that ski. Maybe add tipping that ski to its little toe edge. Maybe add pulling that foot back. Maybe lift the tail of that ski, or lighten the tail, or leave the tail on the snow while lightening the whole ski. The lower legs will tilt downhill as will the skis and the new turn will start. If the skier is traveling slowly, the turn will start without rebound. The weight will immediately transfer to the new outside ski, but the forces will be momentarily lightened since the skis are traveling across the hill and are still in the top of the turn. Lengthen the new outside leg as the skis approach the fall line. **I have taught this stay-low flexion release many times to lower level skiers. If they are not in the back seat, their quads will not experience any extra load and their heart rate won't rise any more that it would doing slow wedge turns on the bunny hill. But if they are back seat, their quads will hurt at the end of the day. It's not the flexion that tires them out and makes that quad burn happen.

2. Weighted release
Do the same as above, but do the flexing s.l.o.w.l.y. and without the intent to transfer weight to the new outside ski. Do not elevate nor lighten any part of the new inside ski. Allow the body weight that has been carried by that leg to slowly drop downward over that ski as the leg flexes. It will feel like a one-legged squat, and mere mortals will feel the load of the body's weight on that one leg as the body is lowered. Lengthen the new outside leg as the skis turn to point downhill, and weight will go to that ski by default as the turn develops. I try to avoid having my students use this form of release, as it is taxing on the leg that is flexing and offers no perceivable benefit to their turns.

3. Retraction
Flex both legs an appropriate amount to lighten and slightly lift both skis off the snow beneath the body. Do this quickly. While the feet are air-borne, move them from one side of the body to the other and make sure that the edges change by employing ankle-tipping inside the boot. Set skis down on the snow on their new edges, land softly, and the turn will start immediately. A bit of rebound from the skis is helpful, so this transition likes some speed. Since my teaching has concentrated on adult lower level skiers and cautious intermediates, I have not taught this transition. My students are not interested in speed; they are seeking control for their turns while traveling at slower speeds that allow them to ski without their usual anxiety.

I love this description, and that of @François Pugh also!

I'd add a variation on @LiquidFeet's option 3, which I've kinda stolen from my experience on hardboot (Alpine) snowboards: I think of it as "Drop and Dive". It's related to the snowboarder's "cross-under" technique but it's more active. What it does is eliminate the need for big rebound to start the turn, by simulating the effect of that rebound.

Basically, at the turn initiation you actively drop the whole body toward the snow and immediately launch yourself towards the inside of the new turn with as much extension as you can manage without falling face-first.

The drop happens automatically if you're getting rebound because of the compression that rebound causes, but drop and dive works even coming out of a traverse. It'll look and feel a lot like a boarder dropping into a halfpipe or like the so-called "eurocarve" snowboard move. It's exhilarating because it starts the carve WAY before the fall-line and it's pretty secure too. Requires decent core strength to drop with enough vigor but I'm 67 and it's my favorite turn on both slalom skis as well as on 21m GS cheaters, as well as when freeriding on snowboards. You do have to eliminate any shuffle you've established during the finish of the previous turn as you drop so that you don't get trapped on your inside ski.

On any carving snowboard it'll work more or less automatically but it works just as well on skis if the speed is appropriate - slalom skis will hook up at extremely low speeds for instance because the edge angle is established so fast.

 

[RoninSkier]

I love this description, and that of @François Pugh also!

I'd add a variation on @LiquidFeet's option 3, which I've kinda stolen from my experience on hardboot (Alpine) snowboards: I think of it as "Drop and Dive". It's related to the snowboarder's "cross-under" technique but it's more active. What it does is eliminate the need for big rebound to start the turn, by simulating the effect of that rebound.

Basically, at the turn initiation you actively drop the whole body toward the snow and immediately launch yourself towards the inside of the new turn with as much extension as you can manage without falling face-first.

The drop happens automatically if you're getting rebound because of the compression that rebound causes, but drop and dive works even coming out of a traverse. It'll look and feel a lot like a boarder dropping into a halfpipe or like the so-called "eurocarve" snowboard move. It's exhilarating because it starts the carve WAY before the fall-line and it's pretty secure too. Requires decent core strength to drop with enough vigor but I'm 67 and it's my favorite turn on both slalom skis as well as on 21m GS cheaters, as well as when freeriding on snowboards. You do have to eliminate any shuffle you've established during the finish of the previous turn as you drop so that you don't get trapped on your inside ski.

On any carving snowboard it'll work more or less automatically but it works just as well on skis if the speed is appropriate - slalom skis will hook up at extremely low speeds for instance because the edge angle is established so fast.

Anticipation & hook up / toppling

 

[markojp]

You nailed the main reason why PSIA struggles to keep up with current technique. A consensus mindset among the establishment will maintain the status quo. “Up and over” has worked, so why change?
To be fair, the status quo is alive and well in race coaching circles, just much less so. Results speak loud and clear, and the younger ones are quick to learn.

Respectfully, as a member of our division's ed staff, i can tell you with certainty that PSIA values versatility. Flex to release is part of that. I never quite know how current people are in their understanding of PSIA, if their evidence is real or anecdotal, based on 10+ year old videos, etc... and indeed, many members' understanding may lag, but it's a large, geographically diverse organization that isn't driven with a singular iron fist. I guess i just don't buy the, "this is how PSIA does it " when I know first hand experience tells me differently. Anyhow, carry on!

 

[dj61]

You nailed the main reason why PSIA struggles to keep up with current technique. A consensus mindset among the establishment will maintain the status quo. “Up and over” has worked, so why change?
To be fair, the status quo is alive and well in race coaching circles, just much less so. Results speak loud and clear, and the younger ones are quick to learn.

You mean Odermatt’s results? Who is clearly extending in transition….

 

[Zirbl]

Luv the JAM crew. Lively, fun skiing. But it's the opposite of compact transitions.

As is a lot of Italian and Swiss skiing, as far as I can see.

The drop happens automatically if you're getting rebound because of the compression that rebound causes, but drop and dive works even coming out of a traverse. It'll look and feel a lot like a boarder dropping into a halfpipe or like the so-called "eurocarve" snowboard move. It's exhilarating because it starts the carve WAY before the fall-line and it's pretty secure too. Requires decent core strength to drop with enough vigor but I'm 67 and it's my favorite turn on both slalom skis as well as on 21m GS cheaters, as well as when freeriding on snowboards. You do have to eliminate any shuffle you've established during the finish of the previous turn as you drop so that you don't get trapped on your inside ski.

Had a lot of sessions with a coach in Austria similar to this. Enormous respect was expressed for snowboarders. The only real difference to what you're describing is there was no fear of the inside ski. In fact, the idea was to White Pass it. Makes you very unpopular with every other coach you work with.

 

[Zirbl]

You mean Odermatt’s results? Who is clearly extending in transition….

All the time?

 

[dj61]

All the time?

No but a lot in GS. Demonstrates that there are more ways to skin a cat. Which makes the whole flexed and extended release discussion so obsolete.

 

[Scruffy]

No but a lot in GS. Demonstrates that there are more ways to skin a cat. Which makes the whole flexed and extended release discussion so obsolete.

Oh come-on; stop making sense. We need release transition religious war version 2023; it's nearly March and it's been all quiet on ski school front.

 

[François Pugh]

Our skis and our heads have two different flight paths. Sometimes we want to increase the elevation of our heads' flight path. The up transition is imho one of the most efficient ways to do that.

 

[geepers]

Oh come-on; stop making sense. We need release transition religious war version 2023; it's nearly March and it's been all quiet on ski school front.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

OK, then I will take this back to the mundane normal skier. Went out yesterday and tried to do this. Suceeded at staying down, moving core over but really just changed edges simultaneously . Wasn't extending or even getting higher edge angles. Thinking, "...it felt sorta cool..." but maybe I should totally adopt Newfy's motto, "I am ok with my skiing". And yes 80yrs does sort of give me a rationalization.

 

[RoninSkier]

OK, then I will take this back to the mundane normal skier. Went out yesterday and tried to do this. Suceeded at staying down, moving core over but really just changed edges simultaneously . Wasn't extending or even getting higher edge angles. Thinking, "...it felt sorta cool..." but maybe I should totally adopt Newfy's motto, "I am ok with my skiing". And yes 80yrs does sort of give me a rationalization.

Set an example us, be our fore runner for our coming years. Ski to both perform & enjoy.

 

[RoninSkier]

Our skis and our heads have two different flight paths. Sometimes we want to increase the elevation of our heads' flight path. The up transition is imho one of the most efficient ways to do that.

Now to fry your noodle.... and just be nit picky...
You come to a GS gate at the crest of a fall away with a sadistic hard left to the next gate....
You gotta flex, a lot, then extend to to maintain snow contact, arc to the next turn.