Hips - Knees - Ankles

[geepers]

How do you propose to move the hips in the right position?

Use The Force, Luke.

 

[JESinstr]

Insightful post.
You've probably communicated this perspective before when talking about converting straight line travel to circular travel. That frame of reference is too abstract for me to directly connect it to the actual process of skiing. The words you have used above, which focus on grip (a very concrete concept because we all have physically felt it), and mention angulation and speed (also concrete things skiers physically feel) connect much more intuitively than the conversion approach.

I believe it was @Jilly who mentioned that the Canadians were using the term Grip and it "rang a bell" with me. I have been using it in my teachings and it has gotten a positive response.

I'll continue to try and work on you re the straight to circles concept . Admittedly, it is more effective in a class/clinic environment.

 

[Scruffy]

I'll continue to try and work on you re the straight to circles concept . Admittedly, it is more effective in a class/clinic environment.

I get your concept, @JESinstr, and I do like it, but I prefer the term curvilinear lines to circles, but of course curvilinear is not a common household word, so...

 

[JESinstr]

I get your concept, @JESinstr, and I do like it, but I prefer the term curvilinear lines to circles, but of course curvilinear is not a common household word, so...

View attachment 195022

How about Loopy, Loopy

 

[Scruffy]

How about Loopy, Loopy

Skiing Loopy is good.

 

[JFB]

Fair question @Rod9301. Let's take the case of an intermediate skier in the back seat and leaning on the inside ski as an outrigger. (hips too far aft and too far toward the inside of the turn (WRT BOS).
1. On the flat, get them into the basic athletic stance and move their hips forward to press their shins into the boot tongues. (I don't worry about them getting too far forward - they NEVER do. and even if they did, it would be easy to correct)
2. On a green groomer, have them maintain shins in the boot tongues, ride flat skis and initate turns by pushing their hips in the direction they want to go. Then do the same on easy blue groomers.
3. Static - explain to them that (at least part of) the reason they end up in the back, rush turns, etc., is because ski accelerate when you point them downhill and if you (your hips) aren't already ahead of them, they will run away from you and end up in the back seat and you will lose control
4. On a green/blue (completely non-threatening) groomer in the hips-forward stance, sideslip, then do a sideslipping traverse, (push their hips to) move their COM even further forward then push their hips downhill (or let them fall by themselves) and let the skis follow them through a turn. Repeat on the other side.
5. Repeat step 2, above, but have the guest lift the inside ski and push with the outside ski to move the hips toward the center of the new turn. This can also be done earlier in the progression, i.e., as step 3.
6. Some skiers also need some work on getting more rise/sink in their turn. I have start them static, on the flat in the basic skiing stance with hips forward to engage the shins and boot tongues and have them rise and sink pushing their hips forward to maintain firm pressure with the shin on the boot tongue. I then work it into steps 2, 4, or 5.

Generallly, the longer the skier has been skiing in the back seat, the longer it takes. But works for me / my guests.

I did this with a strong intermediate/advance skier recently. His response was "WOW! Just WOW!.

 

[JFB]

IMO, skiers need to be able to do this before talking about starting the action with the ankles.

 

[markojp]

IMO, skiers need to be able to do this before talking about starting the action with the ankles.

I'll politely disagree. Without developing awareness of foot placement, pressure, rotary movements, tipping, engaging ankles using dorsiflexion, etc... that start at the feet as a precursor, things done higher up in the chain won't be as effective in developing accurate, consistent, and more efficient movements... IMHO and experience of course.

 

[razie]

@JESinstr We never throw balls in skiing - although I'm sure there is/will be video out there of someone doing just that . We may throw the hips and we definitely "catch" them.

The turn consists of:

1. we catch the hips, with the feet - all of us
2. we deflect the hips - most of us
3. we throw the hips, with the feet - when we decide to do a hop release, in its various forms

The point was that the comparison offered as the reason we should move the hips first, was wrong any way you look at it, as it has no relationship to skiing. When you throw an actual ball with the hand, the feet provide the anchor against which the throwing is done. You cannot move any part of the body, when throwing, before engaging the feet... at least not when throwing sufficiently to have to move the shoulders. Try to do push-ups without uhh using your hands...?

Similar in skiing, weather you release or engage.

Having said that, I did spend an inordinate amount of time following and fine-tuning to ski like the L4s and I do understand why they say that. It is true, that is their sort of default skiing, just like the skiing in the video - "topple" and incline first then "add feet". It's why you see them do only large arcs on SL skis. And then they magically change it suddenly when doing shorts or bumps, which somehow become different techniques although they're the first to tell you that technique doesn't change

In reality though, of course, the feet and legs are engaged and moving, otherwise, the hips got nothing to hop over. It's more a matter of say "focus" or "intensity"... although you're not really moving the hips yourself, you mostly "let them move"... so... words, words, words...

There. Razie's back

 

[JFB]

I'll politely disagree. Without developing awareness of foot placement, pressure, rotary movements, tipping, engaging ankles using dorsiflexion, etc... that start at the feet as a precursor, things done higher up in the chain won't be as effective in developing accurate, consistent, and more efficient movements... IMHO and experience of course.

I respectfully acknowledge your perspective. At a certain level, it's a chicken and egg thing and can be approached from either direction. And we can certainly disagree on which comes first.

 

[markojp]

Out of curiousity, what's your coaching/teaching background?

 

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr We never throw balls in skiing - although I'm sure there is/will be video out there of someone doing just that . We may throw the hips and we definitely "catch" them.

The turn consists of:

1. we catch the hips, with the feet - all of us
2. we deflect the hips - most of us
3. we throw the hips, with the feet - when we decide to do a hop release, in its various forms

The point was that the comparison offered as the reason we should move the hips first, was wrong any way you look at it, as it has no relationship to skiing. When you throw an actual ball with the hand, the feet provide the anchor against which the throwing is done. You cannot move any part of the body, when throwing, before engaging the feet... at least not when throwing sufficiently to have to move the shoulders. Try to do push-ups without uhh using your hands...?

Similar in skiing, weather you release or engage.

Having said that, I did spend an inordinate amount of time following and fine-tuning to ski like the L4s and I do understand why they say that. It is true, that is their sort of default skiing, just like the skiing in the video - "topple" and incline first then "add feet". It's why you see them do only large arcs on SL skis. And then they magically change it suddenly when doing shorts or bumps, which somehow become different techniques although they're the first to tell you that technique doesn't change

In reality though, of course, the feet and legs are engaged and moving, otherwise, the hips got nothing to hop over. It's more a matter of say "focus" or "intensity"... although you're not really moving the hips yourself, you mostly "let them move"... so... words, words, words...

There. Razie's back

Soooo, I did misinterpret the point you were making LOL. But it did give me the opportunity to bloviate on an Important perspective IMO.

Most all "on foot" active sports draw from the ground up so I agree with your points above.

 

[JFB]

Out of curiousity, what's your coaching/teaching background?

Before working, the only A+ I got in college was in kinesiology. I then taught high school physics and university anatomy, coached mostly track and field and soccer but did a lot of mentoring as an environmental professional where I also wrote a lot of mathematical models, and now 5 years of ski instruction. FWIW.

 

[markojp]

Before working, the only A+ I got in college was in kinesiology. I then taught high school physics and university anatomy, coached mostly track and field and soccer but did a lot of mentoring as an environmental professional where I also wrote a lot of mathematical models, and now 5 years of ski instruction. FWIW.

I do think the more you get into it, the more relevant feet will become in your teaching. Keep us posted.

 

[JFB]

I do think the more you get into it, the more relevant feet will become in your teaching. Keep us posted.

While we may disagree on the optimal sequence for teaching, I don't think we disagree on the relevance/importance of feet in teaching.

 

[Swede]

I found this Deb Armstrong video and a skier named Scot Wiseman (on here?). Found it very good on explaining some of the importance/using of the hips for directing pressure on the skis edge and making it bite better and turn sharper. Crusial in racing, fun as hell when just playing around with the G-forces.

 

[KingGrump]

a skier named Scot Wiseman (on here?).

AFAIK, Scott W. is not on this forum. He is a instructor at Taos. Several forum members have done ski weeks with him in the past.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Played with this today and liked it a lot. Definitely different from the "start with the feet" mantra that I hear so much, not that a focus on the feet isn't always key, but the movements as he describes them start with the core/hips. Thoughts?

I am a fan. Sometimes starting with feet introduces a brief moment of steering into the turn which I do not like and try to avoid so some days I deliberately turn hips-knees-feet.

 

[James]

Body moving in and feet moving out.

 

[abcd]

We never throw balls in skiing - although I'm sure there is/will be video out there of someone doing just that .

I couldn't resist