Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[nay]

Much better. They are very quiet and comfortable, stable at highway speeds. ms nay is very pleased.

 

[snwbrdr]

Very unscientific test on a Subaru

 

[nay]

Very unscientific test on a Subaru

it’s funny how we see things and draw conclusions. I watched that and said “exactly”. In conditions optimal for the snow tire (2D conditions) it is going to outperform pretty much by definition. Both tires stopped predictably (no loss of control) and both slid into a turn without braking but neither exhibited loss of control (a spin).

I’ll drop this again here - STT Pro, no electronic traction control of any kind, not winter rated.


If the problem we are solving for is getting from point A to B with predictable traction in any condition, the modern all weather tire solves that problem. If the problem we are solving for is absolute stopping distance on ice, they work (not losing control), but are not optimal.

It used to be that the problem being solved was traction vs. no traction. This is still true for 2WD vehicles, and even snow tires and studs can’t make up for how poor 2WD really is.

This is a Nissan Quest with snow tires and traction control struggling for any traction up a 3% grade vs. a Land Cruiser in AWD (no locked center diff) without any traction control.


It isn’t just the tires, although a studded set of 37’s would be fun as hell.

 

[snwbrdr]

it’s funny how we see things and draw conclusions. I watched that and said “exactly”. In conditions optimal for the snow tire (2D conditions) it is going to outperform pretty much by definition. Both tires stopped predictably (no loss of control) and both slid into a turn without braking but neither exhibited loss of control (a spin).

I’ll drop this again here - STT Pro, no electronic traction control of any kind, not winter rated.


If the problem we are solving for is getting from point A to B with predictable traction in any condition, the modern all weather tire solves that problem. If the problem we are solving for is absolute stopping distance on ice, they work (not losing control), but are not optimal.

It used to be that the problem being solved was traction vs. no traction. This is still true for 2WD vehicles, and even snow tires and studs can’t make up for how poor 2WD really is.

This is a Nissan Quest with snow tires and traction control struggling for any traction up a 3% grade vs. a Land Cruiser in AWD (no locked center diff) without any traction control.


It isn’t just the tires, although a studded set of 37’s would be fun as hell.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

1WD vs a Land Cruiser with a Torsen Center Differential, so you power/torque going to both axles, and the ability to shift more of the torque to either axle with more grip, so of course the AWD vehicle will be better going uphill on a slippery surface, even without winter tires.

Plus, driving in the winter is more than starting from a stop, it also includes odd things like stopping and turning.

See this video, same point you're making

4WD with all-season beats 2WD with winter tires in starting from a stop.

Then when you look at the handling test, winter tires even with 2WD handles better than 4WD with all-seasons, but acceleration with 4WD is still better than 2WD, with 4WD with winter tires, it got the fastest lap time. The 2 fastest were the 4WD, since they can accelerate out of a turn/braking situation faster than 2WD.

In the Subie outback test, the difference in braking between AT and winter tire is rear ending someone else, as the 26 cameraman feet is easily a car length, almost 2.

 

[BC.]

Bump....figured this question fits into this thread...

Need snow tires for daughters 17’ Forester....she has all season General Altimax’s on it now and they have been fine/......want to put snows on it this winter...anyone have/recommend General Altimax Arctics?

I know there are better/more expensive tires/studs, etc.....but we’ve had success with the all season Altimax....was wondering what the collective thought about their snows?

 

[François Pugh]

Just my opinion: Definitely not among the best (the top models from Hakka, Micheline and Continental), but still better than average.

 

[Ogg]

Bump....figured this question fits into this thread...

Need snow tires for daughters 17’ Forester....she has all season General Altimax’s on it now and they have been fine/......want to put snows on it this winter...anyone have/recommend General Altimax Arctics?

I know there are better/more expensive tires/studs, etc.....but we’ve had success with the all season Altimax....was wondering what the collective thought about their snows?

My wife runs those on her Crosstrek but it never leaves Long Island. Consumer reports just tested tires and they’re middle of the pack but the spread in score from best to worst is only 7 points.

 

[snwbrdr]

Bump....figured this question fits into this thread...

Need snow tires for daughters 17’ Forester....she has all season General Altimax’s on it now and they have been fine/......want to put snows on it this winter...anyone have/recommend General Altimax Arctics?

I know there are better/more expensive tires/studs, etc.....but we’ve had success with the all season Altimax....was wondering what the collective thought about their snows?

General Altimax Arctic are good budget tires, as they use a proven Gislaved mold for the passenger car winter tires.

I had the original ones, which were the old Gislaved Nord Frost 3. I had them unstudded, They were competent in the snow and ice, though squirmy on the dry roads.

The current Arctic 12 are Gislaved Nord Frost 100

 

[nay]

You're comparing apples to oranges.

1WD vs a Land Cruiser with a Torsen Center Differential, so you power/torque going to both axles, and the ability to shift more of the torque to either axle with more grip, so of course the AWD vehicle will be better going uphill on a slippery surface, even without winter tires.

Plus, driving in the winter is more than starting from a stop, it also includes odd things like stopping and turning.

See this video, same point you're making

4WD with all-season beats 2WD with winter tires in starting from a stop.

Then when you look at the handling test, winter tires even with 2WD handles better than 4WD with all-seasons, but acceleration with 4WD is still better than 2WD, with 4WD with winter tires, it got the fastest lap time. The 2 fastest were the 4WD, since they can accelerate out of a turn/braking situation faster than 2WD.

In the Subie outback test, the difference in braking between AT and winter tire is rear ending someone else, as the 26 cameraman feet is easily a car length, almost 2.

We probably agree on most things there. My point is to dispel myths that certain tire types aren’t potentially extremely effective...on the right vehicle.

The apples and oranges in those vids is intentional. It shows that traction is about far more than the tire. Trucks stop differently as well with the brake force distribution of a locked center differential. Here’s a vid of the Cruiser and minivan stopping at pretty much the same distance on that same icy day (moderate downhill grade), plus some additional hammer the throttle and slam the brakes stuff that isn’t how anybody should be driving, with total predictability. This in conditions where a fwd minivan with traction control and winter tires was at risk of not getting home in the neighborhood. It’s a pretty stark difference when you can’t demonstrate any meaningful braking or lateral handling difference.


What struck me about the Subaru test was that all of the stopping distances were fairly poor. 60+ feet from 35 mph on flat ground in conditions that aren’t all that slick (the people walking around weren’t having any problems) isn’t particularly crash proof. Some of that may be ABS extending stopping distance. Being able to turn off ABS by locking a center diff is a huge advantage in many situations. Which can also alter the test results - the electronics do what they do to prioritize straight line control over stopping distance.

I put a camera on the slider in this vid (these are all a few years ago and the Interco Trxus featured here was way ahead of its time winter traction-wise), but it shows how this “MT” tread holds and sheds snow as conditions vary. It does exactly what you want as surface conditions vary holding vs shedding snow. Better than those winter tires with all that siping in the other vid that couldn’t create snow on snow traction with very cold skiff over ice.


Camera doesn’t lie, it would be cool to see more testing video like this.

 

[nay]

Ok, back to current tires. I will enthusiastically recommend the Yokohama MT G003 we are now running on the ‘04 Sequoia and my son’s ‘99 4Runner (here):

35” on the 4Runner, 34” on the Sequoia. It’s slick enough out that moderate grades are full of the no traction squiggles from people who are inching their poor sliding cars up small hills, but nothing unusual including some typical packed powder converted to cold ice.

Here is why I don’t get impressed watching Subarus stop over distances that can only be considered “long” and “longer”. This is a 10%+ downhill grade at 25 mph. Judge for yourself the stopping distance and control.


That’s the Sequoia. These Yokos replaced the Falken AT3W on both rigs. My son has said it’s the best winter tire he’s had by far, I agree it is a full performance spectrum upgrade and they will crush slush and deep conditions. Cheap, too, relatively. 10/10 recommend (on the right vehicle).

 

[DanoT]

I was ready to get Cooper Discoverer M+S, 235/85/16. load range E from Canadian Tire online for $821CDN + whatever they charge for installation. But my mechanic shop is now a Falken Tire dealer and they sold me a set of Falken Rubitrek AT for $900CDN including mounting and balancing.

Both are "mountain snowflake" and have lots of siping and a little bit narrower space between lugs and slightly less aggressive look compared to the better known MT tires from Cooper and Falken.

The Falken Rubitrek seems to be a little more "on road" than their Wildpeak cousin. Rubitrek AT suits my needs and my 350' snow/ice covered dirt driveway just fine.

 

[nay]

More Subaru excellence. I starting taking this vid because it looked like a perfect perspective on watching electronic traction control in action (and inaction).


I took the right hand turn here, and while it wasn’t entirely drama free due to the skating rink ice under soapy powder (this intersection is notoriously bad and steeper than it looks), it also wasn’t any issue. Just a locked transfer case on this pre-traction “control” rig with aging Copper STT Pros.

 

[DanoT]

Depending on the model, Subaru has something like 3 or 4 different preforming AWD systems that they offer. Regardless, tires are the most important factor.

 

[Ogg]

The crap tires are obviously the real issue. Never had much problem with a Subaru with snow tires. I've had some scary moments trying to stop my old truck on snow and ice, even with good tires.

 

[scott43]

I figure I'm lucky with the 3.6R system..locked 45/55 F/R bias in the centre diff. Works a treat..if the damn traction and vehicle stability package would stop messing with my fun...

 

[anders_nor]

crap tires are crap tires.

since we have snow/ice a large part of the year, we just get good tires here in norway, only forreign truckers dont seem to complie, they cause 95% of the issues on our roads during winter.

 

[Ogg]

I figure I'm lucky with the 3.6R system..locked 45/55 F/R bias in the centre diff. Works a treat..if the damn traction and vehicle stability package would stop messing with my fun...

Can't you turn that stuff off?

ETA: I don't think it's really locked 45/55 that's just it's default bias. It will likely vary quite a bit when the wheels start slipping.

 

[nay]

The crap tires are obviously the real issue. Never had much problem with a Subaru with snow tires. I've had some scary moments trying to stop my old truck on snow and ice, even with good tires.

Of course, although a Suburban went straight through with little drama right after and you know that thing didn’t have snow tires. Long wheelbase and weight helps a lot there.

Point to this thread, though, is even really aggressive offroad tires (these aren’t really “hybrid”) and just a locked center diff are far better than a car with arguably the best electronic traction control on the market with non-winter tires.

I think it’s easy to over emphasize that stopping is all that matters, but lateral traction is really the most important thing because it is the most difficult for the driver to control. That Sube had none, and even the traction control couldn’t help, which is its job more than anything. It’s cool to watch those systems work, even when they don’t. The fine tuned hydraulic torque bias distribution is really something. Except when all four have no traction. Then it doesn’t work.

That’s what has always bugged me - soapy powder over nice shiny ice is probably the most difficult of traction conditions. Siping doesn’t help much with soap, and then you have ice. You want studs all day long every day for that stuff. Or torque and tires that shed snow instead of holding it.

 

[François Pugh]

I find a nice solid layer of ice built up by freezing rain and then polished by rain with a layer of water above it is pretty challenging if you don't have studs (I spent a lot of time in the ice-belt in eastern Ontario Canada).

 

[cantunamunch]

I find a nice solid layer of ice built up by freezing rain and then polished by rain with a layer of water above it is pretty challenging if you don't have studs (I spent a lot of time in the ice-belt in eastern Ontario Canada).

Braking on that $hit without activating ABS was impossible until I switched to the Conti Terrain Contacts I mention above. Now my biggest problem is tread squirm on frozen coral ice and steel grids.