Need technique/advice for skiing canyon/cliff type mogul formations in steep terrain

[WildBillD]

I am a fairly competent mogul skier on moderate blacks with requiste separation and pivot slip skills. Can do dolphin like absorbion/retraction movements on blue moguls. These types of dolphin like turns are more reactive, then practiced. So I really can't say that I have dolphin turn skills because I usually don't plan ahead for it as a tactic - it just happens

Where I have trouble is adapting to steep terrain, with moguls that have sidewalls that resemble a a canyon mesa, fairly flat base with sheer dropoffs on front and sides of the moguls. These types of moguls formations, present a problem for me, I can not slip down the side, nor ski upon the side of an adjacent mogul because of almost vertical side walls of the moguls. I am not fast enough to ski a zipper line on very steep terrain, nor do 2 consecutive 180 degree ski pivots to slow down and enter the trough at its most shallowest point.( maybe this is something I should practice?). I usually can manage one 180 degree ski pivot to either side regularly in my current tactics.

The mogul formations I am talking about, are those one would encounter dropping into Screech OWL from the top of Grouse mountain at Beaver Creek, or those encountered at the bottom of "little Ollie" or "Heavey Metal" in Blue Sky Basin at Vail.

Any advice on tecnhique or tactics would be appreciated.

thanks in advance.

 

[tch]

Take your skis off and walk around, like I do...

 

[bbinder]

I think that you are in good company here. I will be very interested to hear what the mogulmeisters have to say. I wonder if part of this is a confidence game. Several years ago a couple of very high level instructors told me to pick a line that made as flat a path as possible. I still can’t do it…

 

[Crank]

If you can, try stay in the troughs and turn in them dumping speed with a little slide-the-tails into and retract to absorb the rising part of the next bump below. I try to go with the flow and yes it helps to visualize a line.

I used to visualize a line down a crux spot and think ok if I can do what I know I can do everything will go well but then I would chicken out. One day I visualized a cool line and I just went for it and from that point on it has been all good. Mostly.

And finally, sometimes I just say to hell with it and sideslip a bit. Sshhh.

 

[mdf]

1) the mogul walls probably aren't as vertical as you think. If you absorb sufficiently, with correct timing, you can go up surprisingly sharp spines. Timed right, you nearly stop at the top.
2) wiggle your skis (a quick little pivot) to go on the downhill side of the spine.
3) sometimes it really is that bad. At Taos I saw a few where the wall was actually undercut. But that usually isn't the whole run, and you can go around the worst spots.
4) ski the direct line for a bump or two till friendlier landing zones appear.

And finally, sometimes I just say to hell with it and sideslip a bit. Sshhh.

That too.

 

[KingGrump]

C'mon down to Taos and do a ski week.
Problem solved.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Can’t you just ski the edge a little bit into the trough and then use a little edge as you turn to approach the next one? Depending on if I am in good shape and have some days in I get messed up sometimes getting too sideways at the bottom, at the top I am all good.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Grind the spine works when you need a turn or two. Allow your skis to hang off the mogul and ride the spine of the mogul until you find a line to launch into. Here is a shot on the Starr trail last spring on Stowe where I am grinding the spine. Climb up on the mogul when it gets too tough to stay in the troughs.

 

[WildBillD]

It is when there is about 3 or more feet semi vertical drop at the end or sides of the spine or the spine is 1/2 saddle shaped, with horn shaped up at the end of the spine and a flat back near the beginning of the spine. Granted starr and goat @stowe can get pretty irregular shaped and deep trough moguls especially in the spring.

I have been working on about 225 degree pre turn pivot slip up the hill and then turn into the trough lline where there is more of a shallow gradient, but after a few turns like that I run out of energy, and then the back seat stiff leg syndrome starts to appear( a sign of not being able to achieve dynamic centered balance). On the plus side, there is about a 3 or 4 ski length trough line run out, before you need to turn again.

Another approach is to use two consecutive pivot skids/slips( one right and one left or vice versa) at the beginning of the spine to slow down enough to get into the trough where the mogul wall is most shallow. But I am old and can't sustain that tempo for more than 3 or 4 downhill moguls.

For me, Oval shaped or inverted canoe bottom spined moguls with slanted gradients enough to side slip on sides, front, and back do not give me as much trouble, as the large irregular shaped high walled moguls do. My preference is ride the side of the adjacent mogul after the turn, or pivot on the spine and slide down into the trough.

As @mdf suggested below
1) the mogul walls probably aren't as vertical as you think. If you absorb sufficiently, with correct timing, you can go up surprisingly sharp spines. Timed right, you nearly stop at the top.
2) wiggle your skis (a quick little pivot) to go on the downhill side of the spine.
3) sometimes it really is that bad. At Taos I saw a few where the wall was actually undercut. But that usually isn't the whole run, and you can go around the worst spots.
4) ski the direct line for a bump or two till friendlier landing zones appear

Good feedback.@mdf, maybe it's my perception that I can't pivot slip a down a mogul wall and absorb without significant impact in the trough. I will try 1.2.4

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Here is @mdf managing the 6-8' drop-offs on the Skyehawk Headwall on Killington last spring. Unlocking the key to continue staying in this fun terrain as I age is my goal.

 

[François Pugh]

If you are on a marked trail at a resort, no worries. If it's back country or out of bounds, then if you can't see it from the top or the bottom and you don't want to walk the entire run, just assume it's covered in avvy debris (usually not tree bits if a regular slide area, but at least big chunks of snow/ice), 'cause it might be. Sort of like just assume there is a boarder or a wind ridge sitting just beyond the rise.

 

[Scruffy]

On really steep terrain that has big a$$ nasty moguls, as you've stated in you OP, the face or top usually has a flattish shape to it. It may be a spine or elongated, but it's not as steep as the troughs and the snow texture is usually not as icy as troughs either. Back when I was learning to ski terrain like that, before I got good at skiing shallower pitched bumped runs, I would simply pause on each mogul face and collect myself making sure I was in a good flexed, separated, athletic stance. A quick edge check would be used to stop or pause me. I simply then rode the trough to the next face and paused again. When I felt comfortable the pauses would be less and less time until I was linking turns. I practiced the check welden turns, and hop turns on the flats. I got good at flexing to absorb and killing all forward momentum. This gave me confidence I that I would be able to stop if I had to on the next face, and not launch off it and crash and burn.

The funny thing about that approach, for me, is I got really good at skiing steep nasty moguls way before I became proficient at skiing regular mogul runs on less steeper terrain.

The other thing I did, somewhat after that initial era of my steep mogul self training, is to practice skiing every part of any mogul shape I can encounter. The face, the shoulders, the cliffed backside, the icy troughs. Really concentrate on skiing every nasty part of every nasty mogul you can find. This is better done on safer terrain, and this is training so the goal is not to ski the mogul run as if you we not in training mode- meaning the goal is to work on a mogul or two at a time- take your time and play with them. It really helped me to become confident that I can ski any mogul run thrown at me.

Hope this helps.

 

[no edge]

I would suggest that you go back to easier bumps. Do you have good control of your speed? Do your skis run away from you causing back seat skiing requiring correction? Are you centered over your boots? Are you skilled at absorption/extension and is your body's alignment matching the slope of the hill?

I need to stay centered. I try to stay off the bump and ski the trough. For me the snow between the bumps is a nice place to slow it down a bit. It's where the sweet snow is... where one makes the decision to edge or slide. I like to "ski tall" in the bumps so how about the way you plant your poles.

Good luck. Skiing bumps well is fun and rewarding.

 

[RoninSkier]

I would suggest that you go back to easier bumps. Do you have good control of your speed? Do your skis run away from you causing back seat skiing requiring correction? Are you centered over your boots? Are you skilled at absorption/extension and is your body's alignment matching the slope of the hill?

I need to stay centered. I try to stay off the bump and ski the trough. For me the snow between the bumps is a nice place to slow it down a bit. It's where the sweet snow is... where one makes the decision to edge or slide. I like to "ski tall" in the bumps so how about the way you plant your poles.

Good luck. Skiing bumps well is fun and rewarding.

Do a lot of pivot slip / wedeln type drills adding in some very SR check & semi carved turns. Pick up the tempo until you almost cross up & fall. Overemphasize keeping hands forward. This practices your posture/balance, speed brake and reaction tools.
Start in easy flats, stand tall but flexed using lots of absorption movement, move to easy bumps, add in a few jumps top to top in easy bumps.
Then progressively go back to the killer bumps, take time to read your line options - there always is one. Avoid the troughs, use the sides of the spines. Ease your way down. Followed by adding in more speed & tempo.

 

[RoninSkier]

And remember when you age, get health issues, etc - all that remains are technique and your ability to read the hill, snow conditions - these are the most important imho.

I don't think doing lots of killer bumps, extreme off piste skiing helps with refining and retaining technique. Just my opinion.

 

[no edge]

And remember when you age, get health issues, etc - all that remains are technique and your ability to read the hill, snow conditions - these are the most important imho.

... and control speed

 

[Tom K.]

Spend a run or two focussing on one thing: getting on the new outside edge as early as possible. Best done at a consciously-chosen slow (clinic-y) speed IMO.

 

[mdf]

Spend a run or two focussing on one thing: getting on the new outside edge as early as possible. Best done at a consciously-chosen slow (clinic-y) speed IMO.

Hmmm... I don't think I agree with that. Too-emphatic edge engagement causes lots of problems in the moguls. You need to be able to turn them on and off.

 

[RoninSkier]

... and control speed

Yep - technique

 

[RoninSkier]

Hmmm... I don't think I agree with that. Too-emphatic edge engagement causes lots of problems in the moguls. You need to be able to turn them on and off.

Yep, on edge you accelerate, scrubbed/semi grippy edges with counter you dump speed & can get better directional control
And to turn on/off like you state.