Utah Park City Mountain Lift Upgrades Blocked

[ss20]

Dumb decision. Eagle lift is a major base to mid-mountain mover and is a real bottle neck in the morning. It was/is in desperate need of an upgrade. We can all agree that Vail is bad, but that decision will hurt locals too unless they like waiting in long lift lines.

It's not really about these specific lift upgrades- its about the town not giving Vail what Vail wants til Vail helps fix the clusterfuckage of the town traffic/parking/housing etc, issues Vail created with its Epic Pass and visitation increasing wildly.

As someone who is a local in LCC, having the ability to find a parking spot at 10am, ski the 10-2 shift, and go home without having to worry about traffic, parking availability, or paying to park- is a necessity for me being a local. If I can't park, or the traffic is unbearable- the on-hill infrastructure is moot. That's what the Park City locals are conveying to Vail. My understanding is that the traffic and parking issues in Park City are a daily occurrence, hence the locals can't get their turns in, and Vail is not being a good neighbor. "Paying for parking" is half a solution, not a full one. The LCC/BCC resorts have paid parking, but it's funding the ski bus, the resorts are participating in studies for future long-term solutions, and work with the local municipalities to make a legitimate effort to work towards solutions to crowding that benefit all. Vail wants to charge $$$ for parking to make $$$, and not try to work out a longer term solution.

 

[fatbob]

As someone who is a local in LCC, having the ability to find a parking spot at 10am, ski the 10-2 shift, and go home without having to worry about traffic, parking availability, or paying to park- is a necessity for me being a local. If I can't park, or the traffic is unbearable- the on-hill infrastructure is moot. That's what the Park City locals are conveying to Vail.

That sounds super- entitled. " Yeah I shouldn't have to get there on a first come first served basis because I'm a local". Can't see what's in it for VR - " let's not give these parking spaces to tourist families who'll be here all day and spend lots, let's reserve them for exclusive use of locals so they can drop in for a few hours, possibly in a single occupancy vehicle, and not spend much at all".

There is a solution for locals who want that sort of set up - called the Yellowstone Club.#

I can understand the principle of trying to use the leverage you have to get closer to what you want but all the problems of Park City don't lie with VR. In fact most had their genesis before VR were even in the picture. The place is a pretty big urban sprawl. Traffic and parking issues come with that if residents aren't better at using mass transit themselves.

I can see if the city starts playing hardball on this that there is a real risk VR assess the demands on them as too great as in "we can't fix your past planning profligacy or your (lack of) investment in roads". At which point what happens? City residents want to mutualise and buy out VR? Force a sale to someone else who has the same practical issues plus more purchase debt to service?

The other element that locals seem to overlook when it comes to dealing with big corporate entities on their doorstep is that they aren't the priority. Sure VR probably would prefer to keep the local community sweet but locals aren't really an economic risk. They're local, they'll keep buying passes. So what if the threat on an individual level is to move away? The next purchaser of that home will likely buy passes. It would take real self sacrifice for locals to collectively boycott pass purchases in a place like Park City to even register in respect of overall Epic revenues. People didn't buy their own share in a ski hill when they moved to Park City (though emotionally it may feel like it) - they simply* bought shorter travel to skiing than those in SLC or further afield. On that level everyone is the same.

* Well hopefully they bought proximity to some other amenities, fun activities, a social community, lifestyle benefits etc because going all in on the ski thing is a recipe for disappointment in a tourist town.

#Well not just the Yellowstone Club. I can think of a dozen or so resorts within striking distance of Innsbruck where you could live in a beautiful location with great skiing on your doorstep and relatively low tourist crowds for instance.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

@fatbob I'm sure you are right that PC had problems before Vail arrived, but it is a recurring theme that every resort Vail buys experiences this. Stowe before Vail was not the same as Stowe after Vail. I wish Stowe would have done the same with as PC with Vail's upgraded lift this summer. Vail does not listen does not care does not partner with the towns where it operates and this may be the only way to make them listen.

 

[fatbob]

@Erik Timmerman. Don't get me wrong - I sympathise with communities that have sold out or been sold out to the Evil Empire.

But the roots of this lie deep in the history of US skiing and perhaps in the US economic system itself. If you allow local monopolies in private ownership of natural land and are free in granting development rights on that land then at some point you get to a situation where an owner is more interested in its own profits/interests than the things it is not directly on the hook for. Trying to retrospectively put them on the hook ends in lawyers making bank and towns losing large chunks of capital in legal fees.

As an analogy try not a cutsey mountain town but a town in the boonies where long ago someone sold parcels of land with all natural resource rights. A fracker buys them up and starts work. Initially the town doesn't see it as a problem because it's well paid work for the locals and the influx of outsiders is good revenue for town businesses. But over time the town gets overrun and subsumed by the fracking industry. It's the plot of many a movie/tv drama i.e. the basic narrative of many westerns. Doesn't end happily.

I can only contrast really with Europe where e.g. land remains the property of individual farmers and lift companies are run as effectively co-operatives (Big corporately run co-ops of course). Of course talk to any generational local in a ski village and they'll talk of all sorts of local politics and grudges etc but that's true of anything anywhere. The point is they don't end up for the most part David v Goliath. Maybe that's luck because of a lack of ambition initially to buy up everything and concentrate it in the hands of a single family etc.

 

[Truberski]

The beginning of the end for PC was when any resemblance of local ownership of PCMR evaporated. It wasn’t that long ago and the change accelerated after Vail acquired Canyons and PCMR. I lived in Park City when there were three distinct ski resorts and the overall living and skiing experience was better. Someone commented that Vail or any mega resort conglomerate isn’t overly concerned with a single ski resort or community and that absolutely is the key issue. Vail can just pit their different communities against each other and invest and focus on the ones that are easiest to work with and most corporate friendly.

I’m happy to live in my 135 resident town, drive on our dirt roads, and complain when I see two New York license plates on my road in a day. But, I do feel for the locals in these ski communities and get tired of people bashing the locals. They are entitled to complain as this is their home…..

 

[fatbob]

But, I do feel for the locals in these ski communities and get tired of people bashing the locals. They are entitled to complain as this is their home…..

Sure they are entitled to complain. But when they argue for special treatment above other skiers that's what rankles particularly when "locals" are often incomers that got in slightly earlier or long termers who have made out on the growth of their small farming/mining community because of tourist $.

Do your due dilligence before becoming a local anywhere. Vote with your feet if it gets too much for you. Everyone is a local somewhere. Learn that "growth" is not a universal positive and that corporations don't have the general public's best interests as their core value.

 

[Truberski]

I’m not hearing any full-time PC residents asking for special treatment. And, comparatively there aren’t that many full-time PC residents and most are not wealthy and just working stiffs like many of us. Sure their 1800 sq. Ft. house is now worth $1M+ but doesn’t do you any good when you aren’t wanting to leave and can’t afford to size up.

I would have been part of the problem when we moved there in 2000 to work in SLC and live in PC. Life was good with easy parking situation at Canyons and I just knew I needed to get to PCMR by 9 a.m. or later in the day for my two hour ski break. I don’t recall any ski or housing developments being up for vote and the town leaders were happy to grow. There were votes to approve buying up conservation land and it always passed/was funded when we lived there.

I suppose it was the perfect storm of Utah shaking all the Mormon sterotypes, enough people discovering the gem it is (with quick and easy access from major city and airport), local leaders not pumping the development brakes, and the birth of corporate ski resort conglomerates.

I for one vow to stop the locals and tourist bashing from afar and applaud local residents (and hopefully local leaders) for pushing back. Kind of silly to oppose new ski lifts but I suppose the community has to start somewhere. And, to think all of this could have been avoided if a paper pusher at PCMR had just sent the right form in by the deadline in 2011.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Do your due dilligence before becoming a local anywhere. Vote with your feet if it gets too much for you. Everyone is a local somewhere. Learn that "growth" is not a universal positive and that corporations don't have the general public's best interests as their core value.

I don’t believe any amount of “due diligence” could have foreseen that Vail would be in a position to do a hostile takeover of PCM, or that the consequences would be so detrimental to established local residents. Advice to just move on elsewhere seems glib and impracticable for many people. No argument about growth not being a universal positive!

 

[Wasatchman]

PCMR has probably lost me for good when they made the agreement to sell both base parking lots to a developer.

To add insult to injury the developers initial proposals are/were a net reduction in parking spaces on top of all the other issues facing the city. Talk about tone deaf.

Meanwhile, Vail didn't properly follow protocol with the request for new lifts. So that's a mistake on Vail. They keep dropping the ball. What do you expect the city to do?

 

[fatbob]

Sure you can't have done specific due dilligence - but if you moved to Park City since 2000 you could ask yourself questions about the rate of property development, what Olympic hangover there might be (including raised national and international profile of the resort), what the consequences of megapass/corporate consolidation might be (given VR was already a thing in Colorado and Intrawest, PWDR etc), what was going on with population growth and incomer demographics in SLC.

PCMR has probably lost me for good when they made the agreement to sell both base parking lots to a developer.

Why on earth did the city/county allow that as development land?

 

[Wasatchman]

Sure you can't have done specific due dilligence - but if you moved to Park City since 2000 you could ask yourself questions about the rate of property development, what Olympic hangover there might be (including raised national and international profile of the resort), what the consequences of megapass/corporate consolidation might be (given VR was already a thing in Colorado and Intrawest, PWDR etc), what was going on with population growth and incomer demographics in SLC.

C'mon man. You really think someone in the early 2000s could have predicted this level of development/crowds?? Please.

 

[ss20]

That sounds super- entitled. " Yeah I shouldn't have to get there on a first come first served basis because I'm a local". Can't see what's in it for VR - " let's not give these parking spaces to tourist families who'll be here all day and spend lots, let's reserve them for exclusive use of locals so they can drop in for a few hours, possibly in a single occupancy vehicle, and not spend much at all".

If a 2 hour ski break mid-day is an unreasonable demand from locals I don't want anything to do with that mountain.

 

[ss20]

C'mon man. You really think someone in the early 2000s could have predicted this level of development/crowds?? Please.

As a percentage the growth rate of Utah has been steadily 20%-30% each decade since the 50s. The % change is still the same today as 70 years ago but instead of 100,000 new residents on top of 600k population it's 500k on top of 3,000,0000.

 

[fatbob]

C'mon man. You really think someone in the early 2000s could have predicted this level of development/crowds?? Please.

No but you could see a direction of travel - there was a big global sized marker on that called the Olympics and presumably all the plans around Kimball etc. Plus I bet realtors weren't shy about calling out how the place was going to explode (as assurance re value) and planned amenities. It would be disingenuous to claim that anyone moving to PC back then thought they were moving to a small little mountain community. If you really wanted that you should have tried Idaho or Montana or BC etc.

The point is not that Vail is a unique evil here more that PC bought a ticket on the growth train and Vail just happen to be the particular kink in the tracks.

 

[fatbob]

If a 2 hour ski break mid-day is an unreasonable demand from locals I don't want anything to do with that mountain.

You said you wanted a parking slot available to you when you rocked up at 10am. That implied that, assuming limited parking, someone arriving earlier and perhaps planning on skiing longer should be turned away.

 

[ss20]

You said you wanted a parking slot available to you when you rocked up at 10am.

Yes and that's something you can currently do on mid-week non-powder days at Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, Snowbasin, Deer Valley, and 90% of mountains across the country.

 

[fatbob]

Yes and that's something you can currently do on mid-week non-powder days at Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, Snowbasin, Deer Valley, and 90% of mountains across the country.

OK so it's dead easy for PC locals - buy their pass at DV. Feels easier than trying to strongarm Vail into magical creation of extra parking just for them. Or take the bus of course. Added bonus of DV they will get to ski a less shittingly busy hill an put a very tiny dent in the Evil Empire although against that they'll have DV types to deal with including not being able to ride their snowboards.

 

[Truberski]

it’s not like real estate development and prices have only gone up since 2000. We sold our home in 2011 at a slight loss but I justified it by buying into a Northeast real estate market that was down even more. This was almost 10 years removed from the Olympics and there was no such thing as Alterra, current Vail mega Corp, mega passes, etc. at that time. Canyons was stalled due to mismanagement, some developments were in foreclosure and only an optimist would have predicted the 2022 PC.

Everyone is an investment and real estate genius when you comment about market changes in the past. PC truly felt like a small mountain town when we lived there from 2001 to 2011 and it just happened to have three resorts that caused occasional headaches. But, it was a small town from April to December and midweek and non-holidays in the winters (Saturdays in winter were always ugly). I personally have never lived in or witnessed a place with such accelerated change and I am still surprised it has gotten to this scale. But I’m also not living on my real estate or investment spoils…..

 

[Brian Finch]

That sounds super- entitled. " Yeah I shouldn't have to get there on a first come first served basis because I'm a local". Can't see what's in it for VR

Vail seems to enjoy Fire, EMS, S&R, Grocery stores.......ugh idk Medical Services standing upon their heads to keep their low paid workforce alive in a global pandemic via testing/ treatment/ hospitalization, not to mention touron management.

Perhaps the "locals" should have left the Range Rover that a touron drove 1/2 way down a ski slope @ Okemo? Nope they got out of bed at 11pm to dig out a SUV from a fn trail.

 

[Matt Merritt]

I lived in Park City and taught skiing there from 1976-84 when I moved to California and later, Texas.

Last winter I went back for the first time in 36 years. I skied one day at Park City resort and, in disgust, spent the remainder of my trip at Deer Valley.

I thought the town of Park City did a more than respectable job of managing the town's growth and maintaining the flavor and vibe of the Park City I remembered. On the other hand, to me, Vail's stewardship of my beloved mountain was an abject failure.

For the 2022-23 season I bought an Ikon pass and don't intend to ever set foot on a Vail-owned property again.